Ron Nessen

Transcription

>> Good evening. Welcome to the William G. McGowan Theatre and special welcome to those joining by YouTube and CSPAN this evening. I'm David Ferriero, the Archivist of the United States. I speak to you tonight as I have many times from the William G. McGowan Theatre and the National Archives Building in downtown Washington. This theatre was built a decade ago with a gift to Foundation to the National Archives from the William G. McGowan Charitable Fund income, which is funding tonight's program. It's fitting we take time to remember Sue Gin McGowan who passed away in September. The generosity of the charitable fund allows us to host two McGowan forums each year, one on women and leadership and this one on communication. As well as numerous lectures, panels, film screenings and book talks that bring to life some of the billions of records in the National Archives holdings. Before the McGowan Theatre was built visitors could come and see the charges of freedom but no opportunity to engage them in a conversation about democracy and the incredible accomplishments of the founders in creating this great nation. Now people from all of the world can participate in events such as this where we hear from individuals who were part of some of the most pivotal moments in American history. Through the McGowan Theatre and the support of William G. McGowan Charitable Fund we have this ability to come together and share stories preserved and protected in the National Archives to ensure that these important moments are never forgotten. This is truly a gift to the nation and to the world. Our guest for tonight's program, former presidential press secretaries all have the delegated the duty of communicating the views of the president of the United States. And if that wasn't enough, what they said was parsed over and over for further clues into the thinking of their bosses in the Oval Office. I'm sure tonight we're going to hear some real war stories. The records of the press briefings for President Ford, Reagan, Bush and clinic reside in the Presidential Libraries, part of the National Archives. Presidential press conference transcripts are also printed in the public papers of the president, which is also published by the National Archives. Records of President Obama's press conferences are also in his public papers and his press office's records will go to his Presidential Library when he leaves office. Before we move on to tonight's program I would like to tell you about two other programs coming up soon here in the McGowan theatre. Tomorrow at noon we'll welcome Admiral James G. Stavridis, who will discuss his book The Accidental Admiral: A Sailor Takes Command at NATO. The book looks at the challenges of directing NATO operations, cyber threats and piracy. And next Thursday, November 20th at noon we welcome Kevin Gover for Nation to Nation: Treaties Between the United States and American Indian Nations. And Suzanne Harjo, curator of the treaties between the United States and American Indians. The National Archives is loaning the treatise for the multi-year exhibit. If you want to learn more about these and all the upcoming events and public programs, please refer to our monthly calendar of events. There are copies in the lobby as well as sign-up sheets where you can receive it in the regular mail or by email. Another way to get more involved in the National Archives is become a member of the Foundation for the National Archives. The foundation supports all our work, especially in education and outreach programs, and there are applications for membership in the lobby also. And a little secret that I keep telling people, no one has ever been turned down for membership in the Foundation. [chuckles] And now speaking of the Foundation it's my pleasure to turn the microphone over to the chair and president of the Foundation of the National Archives. [Applause] >> I love seeing a full house. Welcome this evening and thank you, David, and thank all of you for being here this evening for the McGowan forum on communications. I know you are all eager to hear our wonderful panel, but please indulge me for just a few minutes while I talk to you about a major milestone for the National Archives Museum. Ten years ago this fall, the William G. McGowan Theatre, where we are seated, opened its doors to the public. Sue Gin McGowan, a visionary member of the foundation for the National Archives Board believed that this was a space that could bring people together to talk about extraordinary moments in American history. She named the theatre for her late husband, Bill McGowan, who was a communications pioneer and founder of MCI. Bill believed strongly in the importance of open dialogue and was an enthusiastic lover of history. Here in the theatre named for him we celebrate those who have changed the landscape of our country and whose legacies are preserved in the holdings of the National Archives. And as David Ferriero, the archivist of the United States mentioned, you can become a member of the National Archives. You will be on our mailing list. You'll get to know about all of these event. You may even get a reserved seat. So we know we have a waiting line outside. And you can learn more about us at archivesfoundation.org. I would like to tell you that just two weeks ago on this stage we gave the Foundation's highest honor, the records of achievement award to Robert Edsel who brought the incredible story of the Monuments Men, the men who served in World War II out into the open to the archives, through his book and through that movie starring George Clooney. This past summer we hosted a panel of civil rights leaders as part of the March of Washington film festival, a very interesting panel, Dan Rather, Sharon Malone and Peggy Wallace, the daughter of George Wallace. It was an electric evening. These are a few of the things we do along in the spring, featuring women last year, women from Congress, from Nancy Pelosi to Carol Mosley Braun. We hope you come back for our remarkable program and each year we thank Sue Gin McGowan and the support of the William G. McGowan Charitable Fund. But I have some sad news to share with you. Just within the last month we lost sue McGowan. She passed away suddenly, unexpectedly. We greatly miss her humor and grace, but know that she will always be present here through her gift to us all. This beautiful theatre and these extraordinary programs that bring the story of America to life. Tonight we are privileged to have be us Anna Chavez, whose late husband Gene Eidenberg helped bring the fund to be our friend, and Spencer, the executive director of the William G. McGowan Charitable Fund and Mary Ann Brand, a close friend of Sue's and trustee of the fund. It's my pleasure to welcome Mary Ann to the stage. [Applause] >> Good evening. Bill McGowan was actually my uncle as well, so Sue was my aunt as well. Welcome to the tenth annual William G. McGowan Forum on communications, technology and government. Every year we EEG Earl await the theme for the treasured annual event and the program this evening, White House Press Secretaries is sure to become a favorite. The press secretary must be responsive, credible, unruffled and accurate while communicating on behalf of the oval office to a combative and highly intelligent press corp. This hot seat job demands a cool head. In the earlier years of the U.S. Presidency there was a casual congenial relationship between the Oval Office and the reporters who dropped by to chat. Over the decades, the U.S. population expanded, the number of magazines and newspapers exploded and the press secretary assumed a vital role. Providing essential information while still protecting the president. At the first press conference following President Eisenhower's inauguration in 1953, the press secretary, a former "New York Times" reporter announced, I'm here to help you get the news. But I'm also here to work for one man, who happens to be the president. I will do that to the best of my ability. Each of our panelists tonight demonstrated a remarkable ability to walk that fine line between candor and containment. They are Mike McCurry, press secretary to President Clinton, Marlin Fitzwater, press secretary to Ronald Reagan and George H. Bush. Robert Gibbs, President Obama's press secretary, and Ron Nessen, press secretary to President Ford. This program is presented in partnership with the National Archives Foundation and is supported by the William G. McGowan Charitable Fund. The McGowan Fund was established in 1993. To honor the values and preserve the legacy of William G. McGowan, who died the previous year. Spearheading the new fund was Bill's widow, Sue Gin McGowan, who has said, I have a commitment to giving back and contributing time and resources to philanthropic causes. We were shocked and saddened when Sue passed away suddenly on September 26th this year after suffering a stroke three days earlier in her Chicago headquarters. A global business leader with a deep commitment to immigration reform and supporting the underserved and less fortunate, Sue combined ethical concern with the fierce drive to succeed. Described as one of Chicago's most powerful business women, she devoted time and resources to charitable organizations in Chicago. Sue also served on the board of the National Archives Foundation and loved working with its dedicated and talented board. Sue's spirit infuses the McGowan Fund as we move forward. Since it's inception, the fund has gifted over $120 million to effective locally based organizations in the areas of education, health and medical research and community needs. These grants are success for thousands of deserving individuals across America who would have fallen through holes of the safety net without support of the local non-profit providers. Sue always insisted that grantees demonstrate ability to effectively promote important solutions to societal problems. That leadership has served us well. In 2003 Gene Eidenberg, former member of the fund, came to us with a fantastic idea for the fund to partner with the National Archives to develop this theatre where we gather tonight. Soon after we established this annual forum to spotlight key topics in commerce, technology and government in Bill McGowan's honor. In 2008 at Sue's urging we added a forum on women and leadership which focuses on women in key roles in business and leadership. What links the McGowan Fund to this theatre and the ongoing forum series are benefactor Bill McGowan loved history. He loved movies. And he loved open and free wheeling debate on the great issues of the day. It is fitting that a theatre created in his memory provides free public screening of provocative documentaries, as well as dynamic conversations about key topics. Another connection as well. Bill cherished backed by the rule of law. Only in a democracy could MCI, a small phone company from St. Louis prevail in legal and regulatory battles against AT&T, a mammoth corporation with a lot on the U.S. phone service delivery channels. MCI's victory over AT&T after nearly a decade of legal battles broke the monopoly and opened the phone service to healthy competition. Consumers benefited and the way was cleared to advances in communication technology. Like Bill, Sue was a lifetime learner and zealous researcher. She welcomed debate and exchange of ideas and continually updated her company's operations with new practices that made sense. Sue looked forward each year to both fall and spring forums here at the National Archives. The spring women's forum reflects Sue's lifelong commitment to empowering women and giving them a full place at the table. At her funeral, John Roe, chairman, described Sue as a role model for women, Chinese Americans and anyone who wanted to start a business. The founder of Chicago's Women Business Development Center noted during her career Sue faced sexism, racism and discrimination and overcame it because she looked at everything as a challenge, not as a barrier. I want to close by saying how grateful we are for our partnership with the National Archives Foundation. Everyone here is committed to delivering thoughtful, relevant and extraordinary programs in the theatre and is open to ideas from the McGowan Fund. Thank you for joining us this evening and we salute the generosity and amazing entrepreneurial spirit of Sue Gin McGowan and Bill McGowan. Soon our eclectic panel of insiders will take us behind the scenes at White House press briefings. I can't wait. [Applause] >> Thank you, Mary Ann. And though I never met Bill, I have seen the pictures of his wave I have hair and I see something in the gene pool there with your beautiful hair. Thanks so much for your thoughts and words and we're just so appreciative of the continued support of the McGowan Charitable Fund. So I know you can't wait until we get to our panel. Moderated by NPR's Michel Martin, my former ABC News colleague. It's nice to see her here tonight. It includes Ron Nessen, Marlin Fitzwater, press secretary for presidents Reagan and Bush. Mike McCurry, press secretary for President Clinton, and Robert Gibbs, who was press secretary for President Obama, the first press secretary for President Obama. But before we get to this exciting panel, I just would like to ask you to turn your attention to the screen for a short film in celebration of the tenth anniversary of the William G. McGowan theatre. >> The debate in American politicks and government has been about the roles of government. >> There's a general feeling that things are booked and nothing is getting done in Washington. Is that really the truth or maybe that's just how the system is constructed. 27 years ago...- [ dialogue is indiscernible ] >> Thoughts and opinions represent threads that connect America's evolving dialogue, a dialogue freely expressed in home at the William G. McGowan theatre at the National Archives in Washington, D.C. Built in 2004 to honor the legacy of the communications pioneer, William G. McGowan, the theatre now celebrates ten years of Mr. McGowan's commitment to the open exchange of ideas. [Applause] >> So the original architect of this business is John Russell. This space was modeled exclusively after the auditorium that he did for the founders of the American revolution. The program for this seemed to be they wanted it to do everything, the greatest usage flexibility we could. >> Great attention was also paid to the state of the art visual and audio capabilities on the theatre. Presentations from the archives and Oscar documentary screenings can be recorded, projected and livestreamed in an elegant public setting free of charge. An annual example of the theatre in action is McGowan forum on communications, technology and government. Its founder was William McGowan's wife and president of the fund, Sue Gin McGowan. >> To support this theatre and on going forum, Bill loved history. He loved debating the great ideas of the day and it is fitting that a theatre created in his memory now provides lively conversation. >> His likability, and they always vote for the most likable person. I said with John Kerry, I knew he wasn't going to win. Enough said. [Laughter] >> I sat on the finance committee and they were going to put a 20% tax on mammograms. And I was like -- I said, guys, you know, you may not need to get them, but do you really want to tax women's health like this? Well, pop, pop, pop...and the light bulb is going off, oh, yeah, hadn't thought about that... [Laughter] >> We're flying scary flying robots and killing people with them. There's no scary flying robot clause in the constitution. The only thing the constitution has to say about surveillance is that it should be reasonable or that it should not be unreasonable and that you generally need a warrant except when you don't. >> This is the daughter of James Byrd who was dragged to death because some guys didn't like the cover of the skin he was in. Racism is a big problem in this country. Racism is the biggest problem in this world and we have to take steps with each other to keep inviting each other, you're good, I'm good. Can we all not get along? >> The National Archives is telling us directly, this is ours. This is ours. The things in here, the artifacts, the things that we created, that we are saving and preserving together as a nation, it's ours. >> Dialogue, debate, democracy. During its first ten years, the William G. McGowan theatre at the National Archives has carved out an essential role in the vast historical and cultural landscape of Washington, D.C. With ongoing support from the William G. McGowan Fund and the Foundation for the National Archives, the theatre will continue to foster an open dialogue on America and its democracy for many years to come. [Applause] > > So in the words of Young Jeezy, let's go to work! I thought we would start by how we usually end these things by saying thank you. This is the week we recognize the service of people in our country in uniform and all of you served in public service, so I'm just going to start by saying thank you. Is that okay? Thank you for your service. [Applause] And I'm thinking that there are others here who served. If you served in any of the administrations, represented here, will you be known to us? Will you just briefly give us a little wave? [Applause] >> Michel Martin: Can we say thank you? Thank you. We'll talk about the whole relationship between the media and press secretaries, but if there are any press secretaries here, whether you served on Capitol Hill or the White House, elsewhere, especially if you returned my phone call, thank you. [Laughter] And if you didn't, well...-thank you anyway. Any press secretaries here? Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you. [Applause] A little like the defendant thanking the prosecution, but whatever. Anyway, now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's talk about what we really want to talk about, which is all the things we wanted to know when sitting in those chairs and you're sitting in your chair that we didn't get to talk about then, so this is our chance to spill it. So let's do that. So the first thing I wanted to know is, did you actually want these jobs? Did you get drafted or did you volunteer? I will start with you, Ron Nessen, because you were a correspondent for NBC. You covered the Vietnam War. In fact, you were grievously wound and as I recall almost died. You came back here and actually reported on the administration, reported on Ford's inauguration and you were reporting on inauguration and you were reporting and suddenly you're the guy. How did he talk you into that? >> Ron Nessen: As you say, I had been a reporter for a long time and also covered the White House for two and a half years when Lyndon Johnson was president, then I covered the first month of the Ford White House. And I think what persuaded me to take the job when he offered it was, I wanted to see what it looked like on the inside. In fact, I wrote a book afterward called "it sure looks different on the inside." I had the sense as a reporter that I probably knew 10% of what was going on in the White House. And one of the reasons I took this job was I wanted to see what the other 90% was. That was one reason. I think the other reason clearly was that I really liked Gerald Ford. I covered him, as I say, as an NBC correspondent and so that was the other reason for taking the job, because I really did like him. The third reason I'm ashamed to say is that I had a pretty large ego in those days, and I thought, hmm... I'm moving up to a White House job. [chuckles] Very satisfying for a guy with a big ego. >> Michel Martin: What about you, Marlin, you actually went to the White House as a deputy, right? >> Marlin Fitzwater: I was in the civil service and I was at the treasury department when Jim Baker called and said, we need a deputy for domestic policy, somebody to take the heat for the president on the recession, which we were about ready to hit 10% unemployment. Would you be interested? I said, sure. And so he said, come over. And I went over and spent an hour with him and he said, you want the job? And I said, sure. He said, let's go see the president. We walked down to the Oval Office and President Reagan was sitting there and he said, Jim here says you're willing to help out. I said, yes, sir. That was it. First time I ever met him and first minute I had ever spent time with him. And I immediately walked out the door and said, Mr. President, I'll do my best. I got outside the Oval Office into the secretary's area and I went, yes! And she said, what is that all about? I said, history must always record. And even if I get fired tomorrow, one day I was a press secretary. [Laughter] [Applause] >> Michel Martin: Why did you say yes? You could have said no? Dealing with people like me every day, okay, really? >> Marlin Fitzwater: Well, I was a professional public appearance person. I had been in government 17 years at the time I went to the White House. I had worked in a lot of different agencies, so the White House was the pinnacle of our profession, the professional deal. And the other thing was I didn't know what the White House was all about. I mean, I remember walking in and seeing that press corps and Helen Thomas said, what are you doing here, did? And it was all downhill from there. [Laughter] >> Michel Martin: Mike, what about you? You came to the White House from the state department. It wasn't a direct -- >> Mike McCurry: My story was a little different. I had been around in Washington as a press secretary for 20 years and I had worked for - I'm sure everyone remembers the president John Glen, president Bruce Abbott, president Mike Dukakis, and I worked for -- not to be president, Bob Kerry, actually probably because I have an unfailing ability to pick the losing candidate. I had worked against Bill Clinton in the primaries, so my thought was I was not likely to get a job and George Stephanopoulos felt pity on me and said he worked at the national committee for a long time, he can probably do a job and luckily Warren Christopher, secretary of state hired me to be a spokesman. But after two years working at the state department and doing the job there and maybe something we'll talk about later, being on television, because at that point, the state department briefing was televised, the White House briefing was not fully televised. I caught the notice of folks at the White House and they invited me to come over. I don't know that I refer kind of angled for it, but it made sense because I obviously worked in presidential politics for a pretty long time and then made some sense that I would be the trajectory. >> Michel Martin: Did you have a, yes!? Did you do that? >> Mike McCurry: No, because if you remember we're in the aftermath of an election now that is not to be called shellacking, I guess, but the end of 1994, at the end of that campaign, things were pretty grim at the White House and I moved to the White House in 1995 as a result of what was then a pretty large shake-up in the White House staff. Leon Panetta came in as chief of staff and I was part of the transition that happened in the aftermath of what was a pretty bruising political midterm. And not clear that things were going to get sort of out any time soon. So it was not a happy moment that you would celebrate. >> Michel Martin: Why did you do it? >> Mike McCurry: Because I was an honor to be asked to work in that. All of us would say it's the coolest place on the face of the earth to work. I had a great time, I had never been outside the country very much and just worked for the secretary of the state and all over the world, that was pretty exciting, but the opportunity to work in the White House, you know, drive up that little west executive drive and say, I got my own parking place right here? Right outside the West Wing? It's an honor. Even the subject matter you deal with becomes fairly westy. >> Michel Martin: Let's talk about that in a minute. Before we do, if you're on a campaign, isn't the working assumption if your guy wins you're going to get the job, eventually? >> I think most instances by the time you get to the end of the campaign you have a fairly decent sense of if this person wins, who is likely to be the press secretary. I think Mike is absolutely right. I think you realize pretty quickly how great an honor and great a responsibility it is. When you do drive into that White House, a lot of days when it's dark, and you realize sitting in that Oval Office throughout the week what you're witnessing, what you're trying to describe and what you're part of, you know, I think it's truly an amazing honor. I do remember pretty early into my first briefing and I was listening to a question and it was about ten minutes in and I remember this voice in my head saying, I can't believe you're here doing this. And then there's another voice saying, pay attention to the question. [Laughter] I thought it would be amazingly embarrassing to somehow miss an entire question in your first briefing. So... But I think that's -- you know, you understand that however long you're there, you're just going to get to witness and see things in a seat that very, very few people have, and it's remarkable and it's amazing. >> Michel Martin: So let's keep it going, because for those of you -- >> All in time. >> Michel Martin: We'll get to those. We'll start out soft. You know, date lab, thankfully as a married person I don't have to know about, but when trying to fix people up they have this thing called "brag a little." So brag a little. What was your best day? What was your best day? Robert, you want to start? >> Robert Gibbs: I think our best day was probably signing healthcare. >> Michel Martin: I don't know that you're going to get too many questions like this. >> Robert Gibbs: Not for a few more years, that's for sure. >> Michel Martin: Go ahead. >> Robert Gibbs: I just think that the sense of accomplishment and the euphoria of, you know, walking into the East Room and having the president sign that and now, you know, you have people come up to you and say, you know, I've had a condition for 15 years and I could never get healthcare. Thank you for being part of something like that. I think that was -- also that day you know, that's when Joe Biden said into an open microphone just how big an accomplishment that was. [Laughter] And I remember I went back to the office after the signing and when you're in the East Room, the microphone is connected what goes into the camera. It's not an audible microphone. So I couldn't hear it and I'm there and somebody comes running in and says, oh, you should just know the microphone sort of picked this thing up...and they were talking about it and somebody - one of my other deputies runs in and says, I don't think he said that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he... [Laughter] And I'm sure we'll get some of the technology with this, but I remember I was on Twitter and I thought, you know, let me try to sum this up. So I remember I sat down and I wrote, yes, Mr. Vice president, it really is. And I hit send. >> Michel Martin: Okay, demerit. >> My assistant comes in, the vice president chief of staff is on the phone. Damn, I should have checked with them before I tweeted. It was one of those things -- again, sometimes in -- even in politics, honesty is the best policy and Ron called and I picked up the phone. Hey, Ron, trying to pretend like nothing was going on. He just said "thank you." We were over here trying to figure out would the statement would say and read your tweet and it was like, yeah, just sort of own it. And it was so... That was a good day. >> Michel Martin: Can you turn your phone off. >> Good point. >> Michel Martin: Thank you. Appreciate that. Whose next? Mike, what was your best day. >> Mike McCurry: Must more mundane, although I love that story, and thinking of that, you were the only one of the four of us that had to worry about tweeting, because - >> A whole other conversations. >> Mike McCurry: The job you ended up having to do because of the changes in technology and media went by so quickly. But mine was okay. Very mundane, but it captured, as I think back on it, what I think the best of what the press secretary can do was, and it was the day we announced the Clinton administration that we were promulgating a very complicate regulation to regulate tobacco for the first time and premised on the theory that a cigarette is a delivery medical delivery device designed to deliver a dose of nicotine to the body, which was stretching things, as the Supreme Court later concluded. [chuckles] But it was the - the regulation went on 30 pages in the Federal Register and I stayed a good part of the night to read it, even though I said, okay, the briefing the next day, we're going to bring in the secretary of health and human services, David Kesler, head of the Food and Drug Administration, and those are the briefings, but I want to make sure it's a big deal and make sure I know what is going on. Well, Donna and David got up there and it was so complicated and they instantly got way down into the weeds, and you know Terry from the Associated Press an he's standing there looking... [Laughter] And it was clear to me watching the reporters that we were losing the story, because they were having a hard time explaining it, and I said, I got up and elbowed Donna out of the podium, which is a very difficult thing to do, you know. And I kind of took over the briefing. And the guy at the head of Food and Drug Administration, am I explaining this correctly? But I had to simultaneously translate that complicated language and vocabulary in government to something that would actually get through and help the reporters write to story. And a couple came up and said, boy, you saved your buns there because we were not getting any clue what you were talking about. That's the best of what the press secretary can do. I mean, we get accused of being a spin doctors. We probably sometimes get a little angry at the press corps, but at the heart of it is trying to take the work that the White House does, the president does and the federal government does and help the American people understand it. So, I mean, it was not the most dramatic day. I had plenty of those. But it was the day in which I felt like I really did my job. >> Michel Martin: You want to go next? >> Just to follow up on that, one of my best days in the White House was when - I smoked when I first went to the White House and a bunch from the press office went to - decided to join this class called Smoke Enders. And we went. I think it's eight weeks or so. And I stopped smoking, so... But seriously my best day in the White House clearly was when I had to stand up and announce the end of the Vietnam War. And I had, as I say, as an NBC correspondent had covered the war. I did five tours there as a correspondent and got wounded, almost died. And then I'm the one who had to go over into the old executive office building and read the statement from the president saying, for us the war is over. And I've got an old-fashioned cassette tape of that at home. My voice is about five octaves higher than normal, very quavery because of what Vietnam had meant in my life and I'm the one that stands up and announces the end of the war. >> Michel Martin: Did you want to cry? >> Yes e. >> Michel Martin: Did you cry? >> Not in public, but in private I did. >> Michel Martin: What about you, Marlin? What was your best day? I remember thinking that the 25th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin wall this week, and I remember - I shouldn't admit I remember that. What was I, two? >> Marlin Fitzwater: Well, there's so many days and events that run through your mind, whether it's the fall of the Berlin wall or the invasion of Kuwait, liberation of Kuwait, or Panama, those kinds of things, but I think the most special day, memorable for me was the first day of the Reagan Gorbachev summit in 82. Everyone was anticipating the end of the war and Gorbachev had not been to the west. Wanted to see how he would get along with the guy who said it was an evil empire over there. We had 7,000 correspondents credentialed to attend the summit. So we moved the White House briefing room to the ballroom of the J. W. Mariott Hotel and we also renovated half the commerce department on at least the first floor for overflow crowd and we got all 7,000 people packed in there, and I explained for several days why we were accommodating these people and also that I had invited my counterparts to brief with me. My rationale was if we were both on the stage we wouldn't get in an argument across town, which is what normally happens in these cases. And I figured neither one of us wanted to upstage our principles or create a war. We would be very careful. And he and I talked about it. We were going to be careful. So we got to the podium and we walked up kind of on the stage like this and we were about halfway across and Sam Donelson was sitting in the front row and said, 50 bucks Marlin takes him! [Laughter] My first response, well, that's sweet. But my second one was, he just destroyed every purpose I had for the entire show. But nevertheless it was a memorable five days. >> Michel Martin: Why was that your best day? Was because of what it meant or because of your role in it? >> Marlin Fitzwater: I think partially what it meant to the world. To us, it was the beginning of the end. It was the unveiling of the ReaganGorbachev relationship and all the arms control agreements that went with it. At the same time it had this kind of very exotic, incredible surrounding where access Hollywood was sitting in the front row and entertainment tonight was top of my phone list and things like that. So a great show. Great pavilion. And last of all, it was fragile, and the mistakes could have been disastrous. And I really kind of underestimated all of that. But anyway, you put it all together and I was really a series of experiences you don't very often get. >> Michel Martin: So when you have an awesome day like that, does the president ever come and say, good job? >> Marlin Fitzwater: Almost every briefing I gave, he had a squawk box on the desk and he would call me and immediately as I got back to the office, sometimes he would send a note down while I'm briefing. >> Wow! >> Marlin Fitzwater: And he almost said good job, but sometimes he would say - a criticism was, Marlin, I might say that a little differently. [chuckles] >> Michel Martin: Anybody else? >> Aren't you going to ask us what our worst day was? >> Michel Martin: I'm getting there. I'm letting you ease into it. Go ahead. What was your worst day? >> Well, I think clearly my - well, the worst day was when Ford lost the election to carter, I think, but I think one of the most difficult days was when Betty Ford went out to Bethesda Navy Hospital and had a mammogram and discovered she had breast cancer. And she underwent a mastectomy, and I'll never forget the look on Ford's face. They had been married for 30 years. They were so close and so in love, and, you know, he was in danger of losing her, and she wanted to put out the news while she was still in the operating room, send a message out. And I think by being so open about this, it resulted in a lot of women going and having mammograms and happy Rockefeller, the vice president's wife discovered she had breast cancer. My mother went and had a mammogram and discovered she had breast cancer and this happened all over the country. But as I say, Ford and Betty had been so close and he wanted to talk to the press after he found out, you know, what was going on. And I said, you know, he was obviously shaken, and I said, you know, why don't you take a couple minutes. No, no, I'm fine. And, you know, you can - if you ever look at this old film, you'll see, you know, how rattled he was. She was an amazing person and as you know she also had a drinking and drug problem, which she was very open about and that also led a lot of people to deal with that problem. >> Michel Martin: Why was it your worst day? Because you felt he was afraid he was going to lose it or you were going to lose it and it would reflect poorly on him? Because I was so sad, so scared? >> Yeah, because she was such a wonderful woman and he was so stricken by it and she was at such great risk. It had a happy ending of course. >> Michel Martin: It sure did. Anybody else? Mike? >> Mike McCurry: Yeah. You know, it's funny because... [Laughter] Everyone assumes that Monique would have been the hard days, but they were relatively easy days. The press corp was consumed with only one subject and I was saying nothing. [Laughter] So it was just basically, as I said, at the time, 100 different ways to be double parked in the nocomment zone, you know. And it was just bizarre, but it wasn't particularly challenging or hard or wasn't the worst day. It was just unbelievable. But my worst day - and, Ron, I appreciate it, it's the emotion that goes into it sometimes, because we're supposed to go up there and be very cool and collected and calm and as someone said in the introduction, we have to keep it together all the time. And my hardest day was I had worked as Ron Brown's director of communications when he was the chairman of the DNC, and the day his plane crashed on a trade mission in the Balkans and went down, and I was an awful thing because there were a lot of young people, many of the folks on the White House staff had been part of the party who were also killed in crash. I don't have the White House communications - I don't know how the White House communications folks did this, but we had piped into the Oval Office the guys who were on the search and rescue team who were up there to confirm the identity of the body and I remember it was awful. And the president called Alma Brown and it was very emotional and then it happened right around the time to have briefing, and so I said, okay, I got to go on brief because everyone is going to want to know what is going on. And I didn't stop to collect myself because here is a guy who I had crossed swords with. I think the only time I got fired in my life, Ron Brown fired me and, you know, we had a wonderful relationship despite that. And I remember going out there and I got about twothirds of the way into this and I felt myself losing it. And, you know, I still end up losing it a little bit. I had to stop and say I need to - I looked at my staff and they could tell I was in turmoil, so somebody handed me a note that said "get off now" [chuckles] So I went out and pretended I was getting important information from the president and came back and was able to do the briefings, but it's those moments - you know, we handle a lot and prepare for a lot, but every once in a while you get something that jerks you out of your place, and I think those were the hardest moments. Maybe it wasn't the worst maybe. Maybe it was the hardest moment. >> Michel Martin: What about you, what was your hardest day? >> Well, you know, I don't really know that I can point to a hardest day. As I hear these stories, you know, we've all had stories like this. Mrs. Reagan had a double mastectomy and I had to announce it on television and there wasn't much experience at talking about breasts on television. And I was scared to death, I want to tell you. [Laughter] >> Michel Martin: But you do know what they are? >> I had a passing acquaintance, yes, ma'am. >> Michel Martin: A little concerned, but... >> So anyway, the chief called me and said - this is after she got back from the hospital, would you come up to the residence? And I went up and she said, well, I just want to tell you I thought you did a great job and are there any questions the press are asking about it? I said, well, yes, they want to know why you had a double mastectomy when they're now developing other less invasive kinds of operations. She said, just tell them this. I want to live. She's still alive today. So there's a lot of days like that that are really moving. You know, I wouldn't say it's my worst day, but you live with it. I remember one morning I came in and Helen Thomas says, you're killing Palestinian babies! You are! I said, what? Over night they killed 30 Palestinian babies and you're responsible. I said, Helen, what are you talking about? You're part of this administration, you're part of these policies, you're guilty! And she stomped off. And two of my deputies heard all the screaming and came in and I was crying. I said, why? Why? I said, you know, I just don't think I deserve this. How can this - how can this be? But I got over it and you go on. Is that worst day? Probably not. But I will remember it all my life. >> We could take about half an hour to tell Helen top mass stories. [Laughter] >> Michel Martin: Why does that make you cry? >> Because it just seemed so unfair and so unprofessional. And not my responsibility and not - and it was just painful, the idea that I was responsible for killing children. >> Michel Martin: Do you feel that - I'm wondering why you - I would never have known this if you hadn't said this. Do you feel that it's your job not to let people know you have feelings? >> Yeah, I don't tell those stories very often. Took 20 years to get this one out. >> Michel Martin: What about you, Robert? >> Robert Gibbs: I think the hardest days are when you have really big things collide. And I think Mike makes a good point. Actually, the easiest days to get ready to brief are the hardest days to brief. What I mean by that is, they give you - you know, you've got this notebook and it's got 20 or 25 things in it, but if you know you're only going to get one question asked six different ways, you don't really have to pay attention to the 19 tabs in the binder. >> We call it the kitchen sink day, because everything in the kitchen sink you're going to get asked that day, so you have to have ten times as many answers. >> Robert Gibbs: I remember every day of the oil spill was - it was brutal. But, you know, I remember during the oil spill was when Rolling Stone popped their story about Stanley McChrystal and we've got a call our fourstar general back from Afghanistan and, you know, I remember walking over to the residence, you know, and call the president and said, I think you need to read this story. And I walked over and he met me downstairs and he read the first two paragraphs and he just - we had a quick conversation and he said, just whoever is left - it was kind of late at night. Let's meet in the Oval Office in ten minutes. I remember the shooting at Fort Hood, what an awful day that was and pretty - you know, decent part into the evening we spent two or so hours, maybe five or six of us, seven, I forget how many, in the Oval Office with Bob Gates and Admiral Mullen and Bob Buller the head of the FBI with the president, talking through - I won't tell everything, but talking through some of the stuff that they had already learned in the investigation. And I remember that was a Thursday, because I remember I'm walking out of the Oval Office and I see Larry Summers waiting and he's walking in and all of a sudden I remember, oh, yeah, tomorrow is employment report. And, of course, the White House Economic Team will get the Employment Report and they don't, you know, comes out at 8:30 in the morning, the day for go years you're just waiting for the employment - for two years you're just waiting for the employment report. And Larry was going in to tell the president what the report was and I'm so focused on Fort Hood and the investigation and FBI and all this stuff and I see Larry and I kind of craned and I go like this. And he just goes... And I remember going...oh, man! It was the first time the employment surpassed 10% since Reagan. And, again, there's moments where you've got all this stuff and then something collides. I think the most powerful moment was late October in 2009, we were in the midst of the Afghanistan review, and an IED had just exploded on a basically a truck carrying a bunch of our soldiers, and so there were 18 dead. And the president had lifted when he came into office the ban on press coverage of the transfer process at Dover. And we knew at some point we would go to Dover. And we figured this was a good time to go to Dover. And we left the White House about 12:45 at night unaccompanied in a helicopter, about a 45minute ride to Dover and I'll never forget, the helicopter comes down and they had given us the tail number of the giant plane that had all the transfer cases in them and I remember we put the helicopter down and I look out the window and the first tail number is this giant plane and it's that one. And I can remember coming off the helicopter and seeing in these neat little rows 18 transfer cases with the flag, and the process, you know, is done. It's a remarkable ceremony. And we were sort of there. We were there for about four hours, and, you know, the president went out with the Honor Guard. They get one of the transfer cases, they bring it off, through the whole ceremony. And I'll never forget we got on the helicopter and we flew back to the White House. We landed a little after 4:00 in the morning and I remember the next morning a great friend of mine, still is, David Axelrod said, what did you talk about on the way home? What did he say? I said, nobody said a word on the ride home. We just got on the helicopter and you just - again, we were in the midst of the Afghanistan review and I think - you're there watching the president go through a dignified transfer, knowing that he's sitting there thinking, I'm going to make a decision where somebody is going to come back like that. And you meet the families and just one of those things where you - you know, we had to describe it the next day and we did the pool reports and I never had to go out and brief on it, but I just remember thinking, there are those moments in which you begin to feel a little bit of what they're going through. And, you know, real sort of, in a way that you just feel like - you can understand for a brief moment what weighs on their shoulders. >> Michel Martin: So switching gears now, did you ever lie? [Laughter] >> Are you talking to me? [Laughter] >> Michel Martin: Yeah. Did you lie? Did any of you lie? >> I think I never really lied. I think I often - >> Michel Martin: Now, we're not talking to your girlfriend. >> And I'm not lying now. >> I mean, one of the promises I made when I took the job is I'll never lie and I'll never cover up. And I really kept that promise. I think sometimes I worded things to make them, you know, less - >> Michel Martin: True? >> No, no. No, just less damaging, let's say. >> Michel Martin: Did you feel you walked up to the line of lying? >> I probably walked up to the line, sure. I think we all walked up to line. But don't forget this. Let me back up half a step. Ford succeeded Richard Nixon and he had done great damage to the presidency and so forth by the Watergate and how he handled Watergate and I think this made all the people in the Ford administration determined to go on a completely different direction. Plus the fact that I came out of the press. And I knew there was always a suspicion that the - you know, that the press was - I mean, the press secretary was not being completely honest was and so forth and just to tell you - and I'm not making this up. Just to show you how I was determined to be completely different than the Nixon White House. Nixon's press secretary was named Ron Ziegler and one of the things I said when first appointed Ford's press secretary is, I'm a Ron, but not a Ziegler. But, no, seriously, given the fact that Ford had succeeded Nixon and how the Nixon administration ended, you know, and the fact that I came out of the press, and the fact that Ford, you know, in his whole political career had built a reputation for honesty and so forth. So, you know, we may have delayed putting out some stories, as I say, I may have described them in best possible terms without lying, but I never did lie and that was a real promise to myself and to the press corp. >> Michelle, you cannot lie in that job. I mean, that's just it, it's careerending. I mean, if you ever got caught knowingly misleading the press, the consequences of that would be the rupture in that relationship of fragile trust that exists anyhow, and you wouldn't be useful to the president. Now, I did - I got in trouble one time. Helen Thomas asked me that question and I said, no, I've never lied, but I certainly learned how to tell the truth slowly. [Laughter] There are times - there are times - I mean, what I was thinking when I answered that question was, yeah, we were up in Martha's vineyard after this really bizarre thing that the president went on talking about things that we're all familiar with. The very next day we were going on a happy family vacation to Martha's vineyard and I knew we were going back to the White House because we were getting ready to launch a cruise missile strike against Osama Bin Laden, trying to catch him at a powwow he was having. I remember being at Martha's vineyard and the reporters, they want to go to the beach, so they kind of hang around saying, when are we going to get the lid? When are you going to wrap things up. >> Michel Martin: You know what the lid is? Tell them what the lid is. >> No more news for the rest of the day. You're free and clear unless an emergency happens. A signal to them we're not going to put out any more news during the day. What do you say? Was it a lie for me to say, no lid right now, I'm just going to check and see what is going on and see if anything is happening. Yeah, we're going to war in about an hour and a half, would you like to stick around? [chuckles] So, I mean, there are techniques that you have to use and sometimes they borderline I think spin. Which is you're trying to take your best interpretation and offer it up. But I think if you knowingly mislead the American people and their representatives, the press corp, you're toast. I think that's a good thing. >> Michel Martin: Marlin, you had classified information you were a group in your administration, how did you handle that did you say don't tell me anything they can't tell? How did you handle that? >> Well, first of all, I was fortunate to become press secretary to both Reagan and Bush under circumstances where I knew them. I worked with them before in lesser jobs. And both cases I went to them and said, I want to be in all meetings, including all national security meetings. And President Bush who had been director of the CIA said, well, that's generally not the way we work. We have compartmentalization and we have classified information and we determine who gets - who has the need to know and all that. I said, well, my view is I need to know everything you know. And he said, well, let's see how it works. And the last thing I said to him was, if I divulge classified information, fire me. I'm out. I'm out that day, 5:00 o'clock that night, I'm gone. He said, okay. So with that deal really at the beginning, I would go into all these meetings and often the Pentagon would call back and say, why is Fitzwater here? And fortunately President Bush, about the second time this happened, he started a meeting and everybody was lined up and I was just a half a second late coming through the door and he said, let's just all wait for Marlin, until he gets here. There was never a question again about why I was supposed to be there, and why not? But in my own mind, I had to worry about that every time. And what I would do first of all is make a judgment on my own and try to decide, am I really confident this is not classified? Then I would go to General Schohoff and say, is this classified? Am I getting in trouble here? He would say here is a better way to say it or a little more nuanced. And it saved me so many times from saying something that I shouldn't have said, to have a process and have it in mind. Mike makes a really interesting point here about if a press secretary lies, he loses credibility and why we have to be so careful about that. And I have two quick examples. One is Larry speaks, who was asked if we were going to invade Grenada, the press got a tip. He went to the national security advisor and he said, that's preposterous. Absolutely not. Larry didn't know. He wasn't involved. He went back to the press and said preposterous, absolutely not. Next morning, of course, we had overnight. The press never treated him well again. Similarly Jodi Powell with President Carter, he knew what was going on, very close to President Carter and part of the considerations on the attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran and one night they were making the hostage rescue attempt, the press got word of the it and went to him and said, is this happening? ody hadn't thought about it, what do I do when this question happens? And he, in his own mind said the same thing I probably would have said, I think I would have, the most important thing is the mission and protecting the lives of our troops and I am not going to admit this no matter what. So what Jody did is he just kind of hadn't thought it through and he said, no, it's not going on, it's not happening. Well, of course, it did. And Jody had trouble from there on. His deputy took over the briefings and it was a terrible thing. Jody was a good press secretary, a really good one, but it was just - it just happened. So you kind of live in fear of that all the time. And as I know we've all come close. >> Michel Martin: Robert, you wanted to say something? >> Robert Gibbs: I talked a little about this, but I remember at the beginning of the administration, I know it's going to sound preposterous, but, you know, one of the things - don't even acknowledge - forget drone strikes, don't even acknowledge that there's a program that does this. You know, you're new and you're freaked out about saying something that's classified, okay, probably like the third day I was briefing, somebody asked me about a drone strike. Do I have any information on that and, you know, not going to get into it. It's on the damn front page to have "New York Times." Because somebody has reported we killed six people in a drone strike, yet the press secretary to the president of the United States is not capable of acknowledging the program in which that even exists. And I've said this now since I left and I didn't do anything I didn't say anything about it then, and I wish I would have because you cannot have somebody standing up there saying something like that while they're reading "The New York Times." It's sort of preposterous.I have an example sort of like Marlin's. During the Afghanistan review, which we had about probably 12 or 13 mostly threehour situation room meetings to go exhaustively through the process. And after the first meeting, Ron, the chief of staff, came in my office and said - he said, the Pentagon doesn't want you in those meetings. They said, they don't want a political guy in the meetings. Yeah. Ever been to the Pentagon? [Laughter] I didn't say a word. I just reached over to my desk and picked up my ID, because the one great thing about being press secretary, all the secret service guys know you don't have to wear your ID. I picked it up and I said, if that's the case, then take this and do tell me how it all works out. He said, what do you mean? I said, if those guys think I'm in there to give him political advice about Afghanistan, then the idea they don't know the president is - that's the biggest understatement in the world. You think I'm going to go - the president is going into a threehour meeting in which we're going to repeat a dozen times and you think I'm going to come walking up to somebody who sat in that meeting and say, hey, I'm about to go brief the president has just been in these threehour meetings. Can you give me the fiveminute rundown what they talked about so I can ask 30 minutes of questions about Afghanistan? It's crazy. I said to him, if you think - if somebody is willing to sign up for that, be my guest. >> Michel Martin: Are you serious, you were about to quit? >> I absolutely would have if I could not have been in that meeting. Like Marlin, you have this - you have way more information than you can ever say. And particularly at a time - I mean, I'm sure there was then and there is now, safe in the office, where you have to lock up classified documents. You have to record when the safe gets opened, record when the safe gets closed. There's a lot that you get information on and I think if you have somebody who isn't in a lot of that and can't watch it and understand what you're supposed to steer around, then the whole job becomes sort of moot. Because if I'm not in that - again, it's not as if I'm - I'm sure that plenty of reporters will go back and look at those briefings and say, you didn't say a lot out of those 12 threehour meetings, but you at least get a good sense what is discussed, the interplay, the issues they're talking about. You could bring somebody out to do it, a general or something would be just as complicated to do, but if you're not in there listening to that discussion, in those probably 30 some hours of meetings, I said one thing, and it was the second to last question in the last meeting, after the decision had been made and the president said, how are we announcing this? And I said, we're doing it with - you're doing a prime time speech at Westpoint, sir. That's all I said in 12 meetings. My job wasn't to say anything. My job was to take a lot of notes and try to, as best as I could, inform reporters about what was happening. If you can't do that, then a briefing wouldn't matter. A press secretary - you wouldn't - you just wouldn't have any capability. >> There are two important things here. >> Michel Martin: Okay. Let's hear the two important things, then I want these folks to get their chance. >> One is it's not what you know has the press secretary that gets you in trouble. It's what people around the White House forget to tell you or don't tell you that gets you in trouble. And Marlin in his book talks about - it's about have a process of verifying the information that you get and verifying that you know what you need to know in order to do the briefing. That is critical to the job. But the second thing, which is important to come out here is the president has to protect that role of the press secretary to be there and to know what is going on and to take it all in. And I have had - I had the same experience. You know, president went to meetings and said, get Mike McCurry in here because the press is going to be on him on this. And he would literally stop meetings and make me come to the meetings so I would see what the conversation is about. A president that doesn't respect that role is going to screw up the relationship that is important. >> Michel Martin: Okay, Ron, just a followup. >> I mean, I do want to followup on that. >> Michel Martin: We oar going to ask questions here. These two mics on either side are for that purpose. So have at it. >> You know, when Ford asked me to take this job, I made it clear that - and he actually made it clear that I could sit in on any meeting - sometimes Kissinger was not too happy about that, but other than that, I could sit in on any meeting. Because if you have to go to another member of the White House staff and say, I've been asked a question about this or I expect to be asked a question about that, how should I answer that? They're going to spin you up for their own purposes, you know. They're going to give you an answer that helps to achieve whatever they're trying to achieve, not to be truthful with the press. So Ford said, you can sit in on any meeting you want to, which we kept that promise, and as I say, Kissinger was a little more of a problem, but I think that's one of the most important things you can do to make sure you're getting all the facts to pass on to the press, because if you have to call up somebody else on the staff and say, you know, I think I'm going to be asked a question or I've been asked a question about so and so, how should I answer it? They'll give you an answer that helps them, you know, with whatever the issue is. So that's why I think the press secretary really needs to have a meeting daily with the president you know, you bring in a list - here, I expect to get asked these questions, you know, what do you think I ought to say about that? >> Michel Martin: Let's let the folks participate. >> Ten seconds. The only thing I would say, you're absolutely right about the meetings. That's what is so important. Sometimes they say, the press secretary can always come in my office. Well, that's great, if you know exactly what you want to ask the president in order to respond. A bunch of times it is just watching the process play out in that meeting. Whether it's in the situation room, whether it's in the Roosevelt room. They make a lot of - or the Oval Office, they make big decisions and sometimes you're sitting there and taking those and watching it. It also helps you get a lot more educated about any issue. >> Michel Martin: Speaking of that, there's a bunch of things we want to talk about, one of the other questions I had, did you all play favorites? >> Yeah, you were my favorite. [Laughter] [Applause] >> Michel Martin: Well, I should have been! There was a rumor that one of your predecessors called on women base on what color their jacket was. Is that true? >> I don't think so. When I was press secretary- >> You know, we played favorites only to give to certain news organizations that we thought would put a bigger display on a story to try to get it more exposure over time. It wasn't- >> Michel Martin: Exposure or liking you? Liking your side? >> No, no, just to get the story out there. We would give it - hey, USA Today we'll give you exclusive if you'll put it on the front page because maybe other people will pay attention and ask about it and we'll get more coverage. >> When I was press secretary there was only one woman in the White House press corp, Helen Thomas. And I have a picture at home- >> Michel Martin: Y'all desperately want to tell Helen Thomas stories. >> A picture of me at one of my briefings and I'm standing at the podium and you see a wide angle shot of all these reporters. There were no chairs in the briefing room. People sat in the floor and the window boxes and so forth. Anyhow, Helen was always sitting down right in the front, you know. And I would make whatever announcements I had and say, anybody got any questions? Or I would announce something that the president had done and Helen would raise her hand and say, Ron, do you agree with him on that? And my answer was always the same, who gives a damn? I mean, I I'm here to announce what the president has done and what the president is thinking and saying. And that's my job. >> Michel Martin: She never thought you jumped the shark, huh? And you know who we are, so we would love to know who you are if that's okay. >> I'm Jim, I wrote a book called Lies my teacher told me, and you guys said you don't lie and one of you even said you don't mislead, yet I think the American people feel often that they have been lied to and I recently read an article that tried to analyze why conspiracy theories are so widely believed in America, such as the conspiracy theory about 9/11, that it was an inside job, ha the Bush Administration did it and so on. This article went on to point out, though, that oftentimes people have been lied to, whether it was about what we did in Guatemala or what we did with the CIA giving people LSD or more recently the NSA stuff. So I'm just wondering, does the emperor have any clothes? Surely you folks are in charge of some of this that the American people feel that we've endured for really the last- >> You're wrong. That's not true. I mean, we don't go out and lie. Now, sometimes you're right, there are things that have happened that our government has done that nobody but the president knows about- >> We're told, for instance. >> Things that our government has done that the president didn't even know about. I'm telling you that if people there's an ethic here. If there are things going on like that that are criminal or wrong or against our constitution, I am pretty confident that the people on this stage would have alerted the American people or would have done something about it. So I just don't accept the premise- >> Certainly decades before we learned some of these things. >> That's true. >> My name is Michael. My question actually is for Ron. I was wondering, what was the hardest thing about transitioning from being a journalist to being a press secretary and could you talk a little more about kind of the differences between being a member of the press and, you know, on the inside? >> Ron Nessen: Well, you know, just as a simple sort of practical matter, I would - White House car would pick me up at home at 7:00 in the morning, get to the office at 8:00. >> You got a White House car?! [Laughter] >> When did that happen!? >> I'm going to ask him that question. >> Yeah. And- >> Got a better deal than we did. >> Ron Nessen: I leave home at 7:00, get to the White House at 8:00, eat breakfast there, start talking to my staff about, you know, what do you think we're going to get asked today and then everybody would farm out to get the answers and then I would have a meeting with the president at 10:00 and my briefing would be at 11:00. Then in the afternoon reporters would wander in and out of my office with their own questions, you know, and there were meetings that I attended and so forth and I would usually get home at night about 8:00. And I had a very young son then and he would be asleep by the time I got home. Be asleep in the morning when I left and be asleep - I would wake him up and play with him because that's the only time I would get to see him. So, you know, that's a long day, but that was the way it worked. >> Michel Martin: Robert, you had- >> Robert Gibbs: About this car...- [chuckles] >> Michel Martin: Everybody wants to hear about the car. One of the big differences between that analysis is televised briefing. When I was there Marlin, you very rarely had televised - Mike, what is up with the televised briefings? What makes you make that decision and do you get it now? >> Mike McCurry: I had done televised briefing at the state department. They had been televising back to Carter when he was the spokesman back in the Iran hostage crisis. And it seemed weird to me they had this thing that maybe dated back to Marlin's time where they turned on the cameras for like the first two or three minutes and then turned the lights off and it was, for me, was just disconcerting, because I felt like I let down a little bit after they turned it off, and two people came - it wasn't about television. It was about radio. Peter Mare, both radio reporters and said we're at a disadvantage because the print colleagues can use all the material they get from the briefing but we don't get any raw material that we need for our broadcast. We have to go out hour on the hour and report from the White House and we need sound. We need your briefing. It needs to be available for electronic broadcast. I said, okay, let's - We'll experiment. So we kind of kept lengthening the amount of time that the briefing was available. I never asked permission for this, by the way. I just kind of did it. We let it go a little longer every day and finally Mark came in, you know his funny voice, Mike, did you know that the entire briefing was televised last Friday? I said, yeah, if you make a big deal about it, it will never happen again. And I worked fine for three years. '95, '96, '97, then we got into the escapades with Monica Lewinsky and it became a daytime soap opera. >> Michel Martin: How did you get away with not ever answering questions about that? I never understood that. >> CNN was the only allcable channel and they weren't that interested in putting the briefing on. Occasionally they would like when the building blew up in Oklahoma City or something, they would carry stuff live, but there wasn't that much - the daily briefing was the raw ingredients of news reporting. We were out there giving our point of view, getting questions and answering questions and giving our take on the issues, but the reporters didn't think of it as a news event. It was just part of what went into reporting on the news. What happened was, because to have Monica stuff, it became its own separate theatrical event and everyone suffered since then. It was a stupid thing for me to allow live coverage. I should have said, you can record it, you can use it in your later broadcast, but nothing live, unless I grant permission, which is the way it worked at the state department. The state department, if they want to carry the briefing live, they have a filing brief and the smokes man has to grant permission. >> Michel Martin: This gentleman has been waiting patiently, I don't want to keep him waiting. You were totally against it, as I recall. >> I want to rise to Mike's defense on the other side of the issue. In one way that - while I'm not sure whether it was good or bad, but I do know this. Mike was the perfect guy to do it first. He was handsome, he was young, he was articulate. He knew the government. [Laughter] And most importantly at a time during that scandal or whatever it was- >> Michel Martin: It was a scandal. I'm pretty sure of that. >> When the government was really having difficulties and when the White House had difficulties, Mike was a stable face on the White House and the government during all that period. And I used to watch him and I would say, you know, I don't know whether anybody back behind the scenes, what they're doing or whether they're, you know, going to meetings when they shouldn't or not going or whatever, but good ole Mike is there every day and doing the best he can and it was a face who said, government is still operating. It's not easy, you know, impeachment is no fun for anybody, but we're moving ahead. And so I think that the television presence paid off in that instance. Now, since then we haven't had, you know, quite the same kind of situation. Although I'm not willing to dismiss it entirely because I think there are some circumstances where the television presence is important. But it makes it a lot different ball game and different for the reporters. I think it was tend of a lot of the print journalism power and influence in Washington. And we could examine all that at great lengths, but it was a complicated thing. >> Michel Martin: Sir? And then this gentleman and I think - go ahead. Keep going. >> Thanks very much. This has been really enlightening. I'm Patrick Wilson involved in the Young Founders Society here at the archives and we would love to have all of you join us in the Young Founders Society, but my question is about something you haven't talked about yet. Mostly you've been talking about the transmit mode, what messages you're putting out. Almost all of you also served, as you've already alluded to, as internal advisors to the president about what the impact of the press will be on decision making and I'm wondering if you can add insight into when you have to tell the policy shop, we aren't doing that, that's a dumb idea, the press isn't going to like it, that dog isn't going to hunt, what are the times as a press advisor you actually steered policy? >> Michel Martin: Who would you like to answer that? Who would you like to hear from? >> I think for the panel, but who feels most compelled to talk about where they've had impact. >> Let me start with this, I build off of a little what Marlin just said. I do think both for the briefing, whether it's televised or not, but the briefing does shape government into giving an answer. Even when they might not want to. And you know every day - I didn't have breakfast at 8:15 at the White House. We were in a 7:30 meeting, but we went into that- >> I'm kidding. We went into the 7:30 meeting there were ten in the chief of staff's office and I was always the last one to go because they knew I always had a bunch of stuff. You know, you knew - you had a pretty good sense at 7:30 in the morning what your briefing was going to be like, what your day was going to be like. And, you know, you start the process there of making sure people understand, we read this in the newspaper day and we're going to have to say something on it. And we don't get to not say something on it because we're going out there and literally have been in meetings where people said you know, we don't have a policy problem, we have a communications problem. Oh, okay. Tell me what to say and I'll fix your policy. [Laughter] Or, you know, you know you're going to say something and I can't remember how many sometimes somebody would say, well, it would be good if you didn't get asked that question. Well...- [Laughter] I agree, but just to be clear, you're not getting asked that question, I'm getting asked that question. And on more than a few occasions, you know, you sit through a meeting and, you know, nobody would come to a resolution and you would say, guys, they've advised my briefing for 1:30. So we can do this one of two ways. Either somebody can stick around here and you can figure out what we're going to say or tune in around 1:30 and I'll tell you what the policy is. Remarkable how quick the operations started working when they realized, you know, the one thing the briefing really does is it forces you to have to go out there and talk about things even if you don't want to talk about them, even if they're classified and hard to talk about, but we have a government that every day has to answer those questions. And it makes the machinery of government work better because those answers are forced. And even if it takes some time, the press secretary saying, I remember doing a lot, you know. And I remember sometimes they would walk in and I would say, we're not saying that. That's crazy. You can't do that and, you know, you would say, that's not going to work. You can't do that. And you go and you would be 15 or 30 minutes late to the briefing because you walk back in and say, you know, I know you don't want to answer this question, but that's not what we're going to say. And it helps the machinery sometimes when, you know, when Mike would go out there, when any of us would go out there. Other guys, they don't have to go out there. They tune in, they're like, wonder how Mike is going to deal with that? You know? And it helps, though, to move that machinery in a way that you say, okay, it only works if we work together and we give an answer that is good and that's informative. >> He makes a good point about part of the job of being press secretary. I mean, clearly part of the job or most of the job is to respect the president and White House to the press. But the other part of your job is, as he explained, is to represent the press to the White House and the president, and I - you know, having come out of the press, I felt that particularly. >> Hi, my name is Adam Armstrong and I'm curious you guys have had very exclusive access to the president. Now that you guys are outside of the White House and you guys are reading newspaper clippings, is there - what do you think the media can be doing to do a better job to help serve the general public? >> Michel Martin: Next question. I'm sorry...- [Laughter] Sure, why not? Go ahead, Ron. >> Ron Nessen: Well, you know, I think journalism has changed and a lot of it since I was a journalist or since I dealt with journalists and I went back to journalism after I left the White House, but I think what happened is, when you only had the Huntley Brinkley show on NBC and Cronkite on CBS and morning newspapers, they all had like a 6:00, 6:30 p.m. deadline. If you're a reporter and covered the White House briefing and it was over by noon or something like that, you had the whole rest of the afternoon to call up other sources, to do research, go to the files and so forth. Well, with the Internet and with cable television, you don't have that. There's a deadline every minute. And I think that has really changed reporting and the content and depth of reporting. And I think the other thing that has changed it, when I was at the UPI, where I was before I went to NBC, we had full-time - we had two full-time reporters at the Pentagon, two at the state department, five on the senate side, five on the house side. We even had full-time reporters at commerce department, agriculture department, justice department. You stayed on your beat for a long time. You learned all the issues and became an expert on all the issues and you had all these contacts and so forth, so you could really report in depth. Well, as you know, newspapers are really in a dive and everybody is a generalist these days and you don't get that depth to the reporting that you got when you had experts. And as a result, a lot of the reporting doesn't focus on the substance of the issues but look at the last election. What was the last election about? Not the one two weeks ago or - I mean, the last presidential election. Gaffes, you know. And that's what reporters do because they don't have a lot of expertise these days in-depth issues. >> Michel Martin: Let me ask, Robert, this is the first social media administration and I'm just curious, sir, we haven't forgotten you, but I'm interested in how you feel this has changed your work. >> Robert Gibbs: It changes it a lot. Obviously, has Ron said, the whole thing is sped up in a way that is - I mean, everybody works for - it's basically everybody is a reporter, because your stories don't come out in a newspaper that you get at 6:00 in the morning or you might get at the back of the precipitating place at 5:00 in the - back of the prisoning place at 5:00 in the morning. It's instantaneous. It's sped up things remarkably, both in good ways and bad ways. I remember I joined Twitter, and I joined it mostly - you realize it's an amazing communications tool but also ewas watching a presidential press conference in - I hated to do presidential press conferences in the briefing room. Mostly because sort of felt like that is sort of where reporters and the press secretary did battle and I was a battle, and I thought they'll bring the president in there and the president will go into the East Room or something. But I must have lost a battle and we did a press conference in the briefing room and I'm sitting on this row of chairs on the side and a deputy of mine is on Twitter and we're - I'm like, what's that? He's got an iPad and so during the - as the president is giving his answers, all these reporters are tweeting, oh, that's a bad answer. Or, you know, I don't think he's saying this. And I'm sitting there thinking to myself, like, I'm watching the human bubble box. You know, the voice box that's like - and I thought, this is ingenious. You know, now I know exactly where everybody is heading every minute of the day because they're tweeting it all out. You know, digital communications, you know, having the weekly radio address now be the weekly TV and radio address. I mean, it sped things up. But it's also, I think, knocked down barriers in a sense that you really do and you can communicate in a way that you truly couldn't before. >> Michel Martin: Some argue this administration has put up more barriers than any of the proceedings except for let's say the Nixon administration. There are no more - I mean, I'm not there. There are - >> Every White House tries desperately to control the message that comes out every day and that's not going to change any time soon unless there's the advent of staterun media, which also isn't going to happen any time soon. I think that you've got in some ways a duty to communicate directly with the people. And I think there's also a huge challenge. For instance, 1980, when Marlin was sort of that administration, right? 50 million people in a country of about 270 million people watched one of the three evening newscasts. 50 million people. Walk into the East Room, do your event, 50 million people. 310 million people today and you know how many people are watching the newscast? a little more than 20 million people. Now, there's more information that is more readily available than at any moment in our nation's history. And - >> Michel Martin: I'm sorry, I'm not clear on what this has to do with my question, though. >> Well- >> Michel Martin: The question is, that the argument is and the people who covered many of these administrations argue that the Obama administration has put up more barriers, made more of an effort to control things like pool reports, things like sprays. >> Well, let's do- What I'm saying I think because the media has become so segmented, that you now are speaking in a way that the president puts up a YouTube video, that reaches 10 million people, like 10 million people would watch the newscast. It pull sprays and pull reports. Somebody came to me. I won't tell you the reporter. Pretty early in the administration. And said, we're going to - we're going to redo the pool and the only people that get pool reports are people that pay to be in the pool. So we want you to send out the pool reports to this different list. I was like, not happening here. Good luck. And, well, what do you mean? We're doing this. Let me give you a piece of advice. Get an email program to send out your pool reports. And I would say to the White House correspondent association, I think it's madness that the White House sends out pool reports. Buy an email program to send out pool reports and that whole system is solved and you control who gets pool reporting, you decide if you have to pay to be part of the pool, no discussion about somebody augmenting the pool report before it goes out. >> Michel Martin: If you put your hands on it you're going to say what you want to say in it, is ha what you're saying? >> I'm just saying, it's remarkable in that White House briefing room, Mike and all these guys know this, you go into that briefing room and the first person - the AP gives you that question. You don't leave that briefing room until somebody in the press corp says "thank you." When that reporter says "thank you," that's a signal to press secretary that you've reached the end and what most people consider a useful briefing. Sometimes it's 30 minutes and sometimes an hour and 30 minutes. Reporters control that room. They control - they control in large measure the rules of some of that briefing. I just don't think that if you're distributing pool reports, I wouldn't depend on the White House to distribute those pool reports. >> But I think this think about the - >> Michel Martin: Go ahead. >> It's one of the most shocking things. As a former White House correspondent and as a press secretary, this is supposed to be five or six reporters who represent the whole press corp because they all can't get into an event, so these five or six, they go, they write out what they see and hear and give it to the other reporters. Now, what role does the White House have in that? Now they've taken that over and they're editing the pool reports. The next thing you know they'll go over to The Washington Post and start editing the Post. I mean, this is a shocking development. I'm not making this up. I have a tremendous - this has had a huge impact on me. >> I don't remember this issue coming up when I was there, but in fairness to the White House, it's my understanding that the reports are not unilaterally edited by somebody at the White House, that there's a discussion with the reporter about changing - I'm not suggesting it's right or wrong, I'm just - I just don't want you- >> Michel Martin: I don't remember anybody at the White House telling me what to put in a pool report ever. I don't remember anybody have two words to say about it ever. I don't remember that. >> Me either. >> I think the whole thing is solved by the correspondents having their own email system that can- >> Michel Martin: So take the White House out of it. Okay, these are folks who want to talk to you. >> The question that got asked, the suggestion about what the media could do. I would make two. One, stop covering the White House as primarily as political. The reporters there, who are fine reporters, mostly cover it as a political story, is the president up or down, polls going up or down. Give us more substance. We the American people can handle more substance. And the second thing is recognize how hard it is for information to get out there to the public. Sometimes news reporters believe, all right, I wrote that story, so it's not news anymore. We know as communicators, it's the repetition and coming back to the story and finding ways to bring things back into focus that we try so hard to do and sometimes we use techniques to try to control that to the advantage of the White House, but it's done with the hope that in this, something might break through, and I think the press can probably do a better job of helping in that. >> Michel Martin: So we have three more folks patiently waiting and I'm hoping we can get all their questions. >> Hi, my name is Paul. Thank you so much for being here. You mentioned that the role of the briefing is to shake the truth out of the government, hold it accountable. I'm wondering if you worry that the revolving door between press secretaries and private news entities is somewhat undermining that and people are, I don't know, throwing up softball questions hoping to get a job afterwards, you have Tony Snow, you know, George Stephanopoulos, all going or coming from the private sector, news organizations, after their press secretary, and I was just wondering if that undermines the credibility of the press secretary, the news organization and what you can do about it? Thanks. >> Do you think that any of those people got unnecessary softball questions? >> I don't know. I mean, I guess - is the press corp in general - maybe that's not a question for you but for the press corp, but do you think the press corp in general is more, I guess, soft on- >> I wish they had been. >> I would say watch the briefing tomorrow and I guarantee you that you will not come away with the impression that somehow Josh has been unnecessarily given a huge number of softball questions. I guess they won't brief tomorrow because the president is Asia, but when he comes back, when he comes back and it's maybe the week where the president might do something on immigration, you don't have to listen long. Listen to the first five questions of the briefing. I don't think anybody - I think as Mike said, there are days I would have loved to have picked the person who was going to give me that great softball. >> But I guess is question is - let me rephrase it. For instance, does J. Carney's work at Time Magazine get undermined as soon as he - his role at Time Magazine as a journalist gets undermined as soon as he takes a political partisan job in the White House as press secretary? >> No, the content and reporting stands on his own, if he makes a career adjustment and goes and does that, it's hard to go back to other direction. You know, going from being a political person back into the media world is strenuous. And Stephanopoulos as my old boss Tim Russ set would say, but I don't think it compromises their prior work as journalists, which has to stand on its own. >> Michel Martin: I would think their subsequent work as journalists has to stand on its own. You get to watch these people and get to decide whether you think they're doing a good job for you. And the feedback on that is constant, believe me. Sir, thank you. >> Hi, my name is Drew Bailey, I'm a student at American University here in Washington, D.C. I just wanted to know - you guys have had unprecedented access to so many presidents, such a wide range of presidents, if there were any one moment that was very memorable, whether something they said or did that just kind of showed their character and that you'll remember for a long time, if you can share it with us? >> I guess I've already told my two moments. One was announcing the end of the Vietnam War and the other was announcing Betty Ford's breast cancer. >> Michel Martin: I think what he's asking, though, is there a moment that perhaps we did not see. Because we think we see so much, but actually we see very little. I mean, that's a fair statement, isn't it? Wouldn't you say? You told this story on 41. Do you want to tell that story about when you saw the Kennebunkport? I don't know how you feel about that? >> Two very quick stories. One was President Bush called me to the Oval Office one day and said I hear the press asking you questions about when am I going to have a meeting with Gorbachev, and he said, this was early in the administration. And the request - the press was getting their normal cantankerous selves and saying things like, you're supposed to be the foreign policy president and you let six months go by and haven't met with Gorbachev, what is going on? He said, Tom, I want you to know this. I'm going to meet with Gorbachev in December. Which was four months away. He and I have agreed by telephone. But he doesn't want anybody to know right now because he's got hard liners pressing him in Russia that he's getting too close to America and they don't - I've got to do some work. So can you keep that a secret? And President Bush says, well, I'll try. And Gorbachev says, America keeps no secrets. I'll know about this in days. So Bush said to me. I want you to know, because only Jim Baker, secretary of state, and me know about this today and now you're the third one. If it leaks, you're fired. [Laughter] But he said, I also want you to know, I listen to your briefings. I want you to know that you need to come up with language that doesn't deny this is going to happen because sooner or later they're going to find out that it has been arranged. That was a great moment for me because it says the president is sensitive to my problems and to the problems of information. The other story is when his house burned down - not burned down. But the perfect storm hit New England. And it leveled their house in effect, just wiped everything out to the ocean. We went up there the second or third day after it happened. I don't know exactly how many days, but it was so sad, and the press was with us but they weren't with him in the house. They stayed back out of the way. And basically it was so shocking for him to just walk through the house and everything was gone. Automatic the mementos, all the pictures. He found one picture of his father in the yard. He said, what do I do with this? And the photographer said, let me have it, I'll try and save it. And that was it. And we were all in tears and he started beating this rug. And we thought he's going into shock. And he looked at Andy Cardin and myself and said, will you help me. We picked up rugs and started beating this rug, and there was no purpose other than we were three people caught up in - especially the president, in this horrible emotional kind of loss, which we see often in hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and stuff across America. But there was really no way for me to explain that to the press. And finally at the end, I said, can I bring the press? He said, I don't want to be here. He left and went and got - went to the shack or somewhere there and I brought the press over and they walked through the remains of the house, and got no emotion. Said, okay, almost no story and walked away. I mean, that's tough. For a press secretary or a president to have to go through those kind of emotional things. I don't know that that's relevant to what you were trying to find out, but I'm just saying, those kinds of things happen. >> Michel Martin: Mike, did you want to add to this before we go on? >> Mike McCurry: What I recall, actually, was a moment that was really important in the Clinton presidency while I was there, where I was absent, and it was not long after I had started at the White House, like I mentioned earlier, the federal building in Oklahoma City had been destroyed in what turned out to be domestic terrorism attack, and It happened, we did all the briefings, but the president went to Oklahoma City to participate in the memorial service. I didn't go because it happened my third child was about to be born and my wife who was here, it was wise for me to stay. And I remember watching. I remember in the delivery room and the doctor came in and looked at me and said, are you interested in the fact that your boss is having a press conference right now? And I was, but I decided I should probably stay where my appointed duties required me to be, but I remember everyone commenting on it. It was a very pivotal moment for Clinton because he had been - he suffered a lot of political losses in the midterm election. There were questions about, are you still relevant in process because the Republicans and Newt Gingrich had taken over the Congress and in that process the president often has to do healing and helping the country get through moments of really trauma. He had done an exceptionally good job at that. I watched it like every other American watched it. He called. He called to congratulate us on the birth of our son, but I remember just how absolutely tickled he was that he had been able to use the presidency to do something really important to help the people in Oklahoma City, probably to help himself, because he understood that he had done a great job. But there are those moments when they get to - kind of the lights off and cameras off, they get to kind of stop and assess what it's all about, and I think those are rare. And then you get real insight into what kind of person they are at those points. >> Michel Martin: You are our final question for the evening. >> Many times I've been cut off about this part. My name is Jim Bard. I covered this town oh, some 50 years. I was at the briefing a year ago last month when the committee for the production of journalists issued a very, very damning report on the Obama administration's behavior with regard to the press and some of the top reporters in town were quoted in there. In my opinion, the worst thing he did from the point to have press, he promised to veto the defense authorization act of fiscal '13, which has that section in it permitting our government to arrest any of us, anywhere in the United States on suspicion of treason or whatever. And he signed it. And went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court refused to hear it in. In any case, I'm wondering, Mr. Gibbs, you must have read that report and then the defense authorization act of fiscal '13. I mean, my god he said he was going to veto it and he didn't. >> I don't know what you are referring to. I was out of government at that point. I didn't see that report or mention that provision. I mean, one of the things that I am reminded of a story, we were pretty early on in the administration there was here were soldier abuse photos that we had to make a decision on, and our first decision was to release those photos. I think it was Iraq and Afghanistan, and I remember about a few days after the president made the decision that it was a good thing to release those photos, Bob Gates came over to the White House and I sat in on the meeting and he and Gates talked about it and made what everybody believed was a persuasive case on not releasing those photos, and why that would put people in danger and put soldiers in danger and have the reaction of people even note directed at those that were in the photos, but just overall, and we talked a little about how, you know, sort of knowing too much information had been in that meeting, and we walked out of that meeting and the president had decided, secretary gates, we'll reverse the decision and we won't release the photos. I don't know if that was day or a day later, literally the last question I got in the briefing, I was half off the podium walking away, and it had been - we said we released photos but they hadn't been released. Somebody called out, when are the photos going to be released? I remember turning around and I wasn't far enough off to pretend I didn't hear it. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, I've got to be - like I've got a challenging answer here because I know that they're not going to be released. And I know I've seen a meeting, I've seen the discussion, I know why, and I was very sort of reminded of telling the truth slowly. I gave an answer that led everyone to understand we were about to make a very different decision. But it just reminds me of the times in which, as we talked about at the beginning, you've got information and what do you do with it when you have it? You're making these decisions about transparency, non-transparency. Some of the decisions and some of the definitions I don't think is easy as some people might presume just transparency at large or some of those decisions. >> Michel Martin: Thank you. I don't know that this gentleman is satisfied with that answer. I think that - but we there are so many things we could have talked about, including, Ron Nessen, you were the first political figure to appear on Saturday Night Live. But we'll have to save that for the next session. Ron Nessen, Marlin Fitzwater, Mike McCurry, Robert Gibbs. Thank you. [Applause]