Peter Löscher

Transcription

[Music] Mr. Loescher, thank you very much for being with us here today. If we can start off as Dean [inaudible] said, you have worked in many different countries across the world and worked in many different businesses. Perhaps we could start by asking you, there are some common traits that you have identified with all of the leaders that you have met that you would say define leadership for you. I think there are many, many definitions of leaderships around the world so I will not be the one who will add another one. But I mean if you think about maybe we can talk a little bit in terms of what I personally consider as key traits of good leaders. I think the first one I would say is clarity of direction and vision. Second one is, and that's probably a skill in itself that how you break it then down in actionable steps shorter, medium and long term which is then linked to the capacity of the organization and to your competitive environment which you are facing so that you challenge the organization, that you challenge the environment but you make the possible, possible in the fastest time what you can and what you are able to implement so how you execute well in this regard. The third one I would say is that you have to be absolutely passionate because without passion you will not be able to rally your teams behind you. The fourth one I would say you have to be absolutely determined in pursuing what you have set out for the organization and for me, the fifth one I would say is that you have to have a true north for yourself irrespective of company values or company culture that you clearly define for yourself what's right and what's wrong and then you are on to the field to play. And on to the field you were as Dean sort of said the first outside CEO in Siemens's history. I imagine that created some specific leadership challenges for you, perhaps you could talk about these principles that you mentioned and how you applied those as you took over as CEO and President of Siemens. I mean who has actually read and worked through the case, can you just show me by hands up, well I don't have to explain anything o you. I mean obviously it was a very defining moment for the company, it was very defining moment for myself. I mean I was the 12th CEO in the history of the company, the first one coming from the outside, and the company itself was in a major shock. So the first thing what I had to do is really to make sure that what happened to the organization was never part of the company culture. So the first thing what I set out for the organization to clearly differentiate that we had a major leadership crisis to deal with and to tackle with, but it was not a company culture issue per se what we had to deal with. So for me resolving this issue in the fastest possible time was obviously the highest priority. The second one is then when you are the first one coming from the outside in this way on to the management board you know it's the natural thing, I mean who is person. I didn't have a broad following in Germany because I spent all my life across the world. So the first question was actually who is he. The second question probably was, will he bring his own team with him, will he change everything what we have done in the past, will he try to revolutionize the company or not. So I very clearly set out and said Siemens doesn't need a revolution but we will continue to have an evolution but we will do this with speed, speed, speed, speed. So the third element was then to tackle the first crisis what I really had to deal with and this is this whole corruption case and how to make sure that we deal with it in a extremely forceful transparent and open manner and I knew that I had to bring in people from the outside to help me on this one. So my first key appointments in the organization were absolute critical and this was Peter Solmssen, the Chief Legal Counsel who worked with me in GE and then also the Chief Compliance Officer so that I had actually a team on to there who I can really trust and who can really work with the overall organization to tackle this most pressing issue what we had to deal with. And then you very quickly move on to really say I wanted to have 100 days, I wanted to have 100 days for the simple reason that I wanted to really see as many people as I could, listen, travel around the world, engage the organization from the customer viewpoint and from the different parts of the world get feedback, get input and at the same time work then with my top leadership team what has to be changed. And then the whole thing evolved around structure changes, leadership changes and so on and so forth and you have read the case so I don't have to repeat all of it. But the initial part was very much making sure that I am visible to as many people of the organization as possible so I had a lot of skip-level meetings for example I made deliberate efforts that I made big town meetings all over the world with being on different sites, where I have met the young leaders of the organization and so on and so forth that I have really an interaction at very different level of the organization and that I also get an input from the customer viewpoint. So a classic day, if you ask me what is a classic day within Siemens and I think it's probably still valid today and this is what I have basically developed over many, many, many years. I come in into the morning, basically start breakfast with a group of customers followed by meeting with politicians or with senior customers on contracts. Then I go into having lunch with the young high potentials, me alone and nobody else then followed by business reviews, town hall meetings and then a joint dinner with the top leadership team. And if you do this day after day, you get a very, very solid and very quick understanding what are the true issues and what you have to tackle on and what are the most pressing ones, what you have to deal with as a leader and as a leadership team. And as Siemens has evolved over the last three years it has 400,000 people across the world. How do you affect change when you have so many different businesses in so many different countries and so many individual people who you need to persuade and to get on board with the way you are thinking about the company? I mean the first thing you say is that you have to recognize that you have to rely on many, many other people. So you need to work one, with a united top leadership team. So the first issue what you have to deal with is how do you make sure that you really work with your team who you trust and who speaks with one voice in one direction and acts and speaks in the same way. So how do you quickly get basically different change agents in the organization who are really aligned with what you try to accomplish in the organization. And for this reason the change that I have introduce in terms of the CEO principle was exactly this, to absolutely make sure that I had then the leaders in place who I trusted who believed in the same vision, who worked in the same direction with the same speed how I wanted change happening in the organization. And then through the principle that I have just announced and I am traveling 70% of my time being in front of the organization as much as you can yourself because there is nothing more important than the personal and direct dialogue with the teams around the world. And as you have evolved as a leader and if we broaden it out just beyond Siemens, could you talk perhaps about how your personal style of leadership has evolved overtime and as you have encountered different challenges in the different companies you have worked in, how has that caused you to reflect on your personal style of leadership? I think it's a very, I mean look at this crowd that I always, look at all of you. I mean you are probably, how many nations are there in Stanford? 50 nations. So you see my grandmother is Italian, my parents are Austrian, my wife is Spanish, two of my children are American, the third one is Spanish and I am Austrian. So I have learned to be a minority and I have learned to actually have a very acute culture sense and this is very important because the world is very different. And when you then have the big opportunity what I got early on in life to work in Asia, to study in Asia, in US and in European countries, you are not just broadening your skill set, you hone your instinct and you also realize that there are many, many avenues to reach a certain goal post and you know all of this so I don't have to really repeat it. But if I give you three examples, I mean in US everybody knows that you can lead very much by objective setting, vision setting, objective setting and then you basically work your plan and the people will very much align themselves in doing so. And when you then go to Spain for example, do we have Spanish colleagues here? So the first thing that you realize is that you have to allow far more time for talking. So when you tried to align the organization, the first principle that you have to adhere to is that you allow the teams to really have a good talk among themselves. And then this is how you create alignment but it's very, very important that you give this, you cannot just set it from the top and say this is what we will do and this is how it looks like and these are the action steps and I ask you to follow, because they won't. But you get a very strong buy in if you do it the other way around. When you then go to Asia, you have a very similar type of leadership requirement; you must make sure that you engage the organization from a bottom up perspective and then align it in different initiatives, top down and bottom up. And this is the privilege that I had in my life that I grew up in different cultural environments, I worked in different environments and this helped me a lot in terms of how I appreciate the diversity of the world and also how to be most effective in cross-cultural teams which is the true asset of a global company like ours. And if we talk about you have such a large organization, you talked about the young leaders that you have. I think for a group of high potential leaders like us perhaps you could talk about- But anyway this is exactly what I assume because otherwise you wouldn't be here. But let's talk about the other side of that. What do you think are the most common mistakes that you see young leaders in your organization make and what could we learn from those mistakes? Look I mean the first advice that I would have is I mean all of you are leaders otherwise you wouldn't be here. But I think as leaders being young or older the first thing what we have to recognize is how privileged we are. And I give you now a quote what was a great learning for me from Jack Welch. I met Jack in the mid 90s through a benchmarking exercise. When I then joined the GE organization, he was on his book tour and I met him in his signing with his latest books. So I said Jack I am here now in office of GE, what is your one line of advice? You know what he gave me in one line of advice? Peter, give it all, Jack. And I think lift your dreams and make sure that you live up to the capacity and what you have as individuals and make a real contribution to the work what you do for others. And I think this is the great privilege what we have, this is what leaders have to think of in terms of what is their impact not just from a economic perspective but also ecological perspective, social perspective and the impact what we have for many, many millions of people. And for me, it was always a great privilege. I spent many, many years of my life in the pharmaceutical business for a very simple reason because I was enormously privileged to work on technologies and help people to live a better life and to survive. And when you then talk to patients and you feel really the impact what you have, this makes me very, very proud of. And that's a great privilege of being the CEO of Siemens being in so many businesses, this is the impact which a big organization like ours have is enormous and that's an enormous, enormous privilege. But I guess with that privilege comes a lot of responsibility in leaders and when you look at these high potential leaders you mentioned you have lunch with them many days. I think a lot of us feel that we learn the most when we struggle and when we face challenges, perhaps you could talk a little bit more about when you talk to these, what are the challenges that they are dealing with because these I think are the challenges that we might face in the next two to three years? I always tell my team when I look into this room here how many of you will join big global organizations like Siemens. One, two, three, four, five, and that's the reality; you want to become entrepreneurs, you look for very different fulfillments in your life. I mean when I was at Harvard and we were talking about when you go through the last 20 years, I mean 20 years ago poverty was the issue. At one point there were the big organizations then there was the whole wave of the consultancies then was a big wave of the financial industry and the most promising perspective right now is to be real entrepreneurship. So making it for yourself and create something for yourself and you are here in your backyards at Silicon Valley, and I was quite impressed. I learned from the dean actually [inaudible] that 40% of you will actually start to work there, that's great. So for a big organization like Siemens, you are not waiting till you are middle aged and gray till somebody in life will tell you and now you are fully responsible. You are asking for the responsibility far earlier than any generation before you. You also have an enormous privilege like all of us when we compare the change what is now happening in the world be it technological change, be it the global change which is happening, it is happening in one management generation. The type of change which used to happen [inaudible] so there is an enormous compressed way of opportunity. There is an enormous opportunity space. So big organizations have to make sure how they are attractive for a young population like yourself who is asking for broader experience and more responsibility far earlier than any other management generation before you and that's the challenge and that's the type of opportunity space which big companies have to face. And when we look at this next generation leaders, how do you think the challenges that they will face as leaders, you have talked about them having more responsibility earlier but how do you see the other challenges they face as leaders has being different from the current generation and from generations before them? I think as I said I mean the big change is if you just talk about the globalization which is currently happening in the world, it's with a speed which is enormous. I grew up for example, in my first studies, I studies in Austria and the Iron Curtain was actually just happening in the backyards of Vienna and I was crossing this Iron Curtain several times. I could not imagine, really I could not imagine that I will ever see in my life that this would change. This for me was something which was given and look what happened just through this one thing how the world has changed. Now we are going through a major crisis and we see all of a sudden the political architecture changing dramatically going from a G7, G8 to a G20, the emerging markets they are asking for far more responsibility not just economically but also politically. When you then look where 97% of incremental population growth will happen, it will happen in the emerging economies and they want to have the same way and opportunity space that we have in our lifespan sitting here at the university. So the change that you have and the impact, I would not like to talk in terms of challenges but the opportunities that you have is the impact what Friedman was talking about, a flat world which is absolutely a reality right now. The impact that new technology can bring in terms of mass impact is in a way democratized like never before and this creates an enormous new opportunity space for each one of you and find your space, go for it and make an impact, and make an impact economically but also socially and community wise and I think this is exactly what this opportunity space is. I think in order to do that all of us have benefited from mentors in our life to provide us guidance and to help us understand the potential that exists for us. You mentioned Jack Welch earlier; are there any particular mentors that you have had and what do you think were the best important things you learned from them? I mean first of all I didn't have, I mean I don't go back and say this was one mentor which was great. But you learn from each one of the people you interface with. Maybe one story which was for me very telling; when I was 27 years of age, I joined a big German company called Hoechst at that time, it was a big chemical company and the CEO used to be my mentor. He hired me and he said look, start working, work here six months and then come back and then let's talk about what you would like to do within our organization. I had my one page and I was clearing mapping it out what I would like to do and this and this and he showed up in his office and then he was listening two minutes and then he turned it away and said I will give you an advice, have fun, enjoy the things that you are doing and make sure that people you work with are equally enjoyable and then everything that we have written here will happen automatically. And that's a great advice because never try to plan any career, never try to chart but whatever you do try to do it in the best possible way and then go for it, it's a great advice that I got for myself. And as you have become a senior- And by the way, at that time, my ambition level was to become the CEO of Hoechst Austria. I guess you are perhaps now a mentor to other people in your organization, could you perhaps talk about how you feel playing that role now as being a mentor to that next generation of leaders? Yeah this is very important. I mean when you ask me what is one of the most rewarding aspects that I spend time with is really we have now introduced a new mentoring scheme for all the board members, for all my colleagues as well where I have basically 15 mentees all across the world with different backgrounds and we rotate them every two years. So they are mentees for two years and then they are rotated to the next, and this is for me extremely rewarding. So I have very-very closely and the mentee is responsible for the mentor relationship. It works in different ways, it is very personal and I try to provide feedback to them, give them advice from my experience and also at the same time get to know where their challenges are and to make sure that the right steps are taken and that they are stretched in the right possible way within the organization. So the mentee- mentor relationship is something which is enormously enjoyable for me personally and I spend quite significant part of my time to make sure that I stay in touch with them and that we have a continuous dialogue. And before we open it questions, one last thing that we have seen in the last five years is a much closer tie between business and government. What has been your experience of that trend and how do you think that's likely to evolve in the next 5 to 10 years? Oh absolutely. I mean it's absolutely true number one particularly for big infrastructure companies like ourselves. When you think about a big company like Siemens who at the end of the day our whole business is infrastructure at the end of the day be it medical infrastructure, be it energy infrastructure or be it now with Masdar City the next generation of the city environment so all of it is really big infrastructure programs. And there you have on one side you face governments as regulators, you face government as customers, the whole stimulus programs as part of what we have seen during the crisis so absolutely and then you have economists who are very closely linked between infrastructure development programs and the political agenda around the world. So there is a very close alignment, it's getting closer and it's a very important one particularly for a company like ourselves. (Informal Talk) [Audience] Thank you very much. I wanted to ask you what cleantech opportunities do you see for Latin America. I mean I will answer this question but it will start a little bit broader because it's a very important question that you are asking. When I joined Siemens, I asked a question what is our cleantech portfolio and nobody could give me an answer what a he cleantech portfolio is because it was actually in the businesses. There were different solutions but nobody actually looked across and said this is our cleantech portfolio be it renewable or be it energy efficient. So when we have for the first time lined it up so I started in 2007 I asked this question. By July 2008 we had for the first time actually developed our cleantech portfolio and it was 17 billion euro, the biggest and broadest cleantech portfolio for any company in the world. In the meantime, we have setout an objective of 25 billion, we will overachieve it already this year and we are by far the biggest infrastructure company and this is what I set out as a vision for the company to be a green infrastructure pioneer. So that's the major, major strategic emphasis of the company across all business lines. To make sure that the next generation of product development are more resource efficient and energy efficient and when we have the highest speed trains and the highest speed trains are only consuming 0.33 liters per 100 kilometers per passenger then it's the most energy efficient high speed train as well not just the fastest one. And when you look into the sustainability agenda around the world, it is blatant clear that this is on the highest political priority level despite the fact that Copenhagen has not succeeded to bring into any climate change agreement. But, when you talk about to mayors around the world that 1% of the population of square meter, our city is consuming 75% of energy consumption, 80% of CO2 emissions, you know that this is the biggest challenge around the world. And in south and Latin America and this is all around the world. When you then talk about and you talk about the Olympic games for example Brazil or the Football World Cup, the big resource and the infrastructure development programs which are currently put into place have all the agenda of making sure that the latest generation of infrastructure development is significantly better in terms of sustainability of the infrastructure development programs than any other generation before. So you have this, in Latin America equally, for example last week I was together with Pinera, the President of Chile, again we immediately worked on a program how can actually Chile now introduce the latest technology of cleantech to really make sure that they benefit for example of their solar intensity that they have and how can they bring together solar programs, that they make sure that in their biggest cities are the mobility infrastructure programs which are now built out with a latest technology of far more resources and consuming less resources than before. So it's a big, big program across all political scopes be it in Latin America, be it in this country. I mean Obama has made a big, big, big push in terms of cleantech being not just being a big job engine, how the economy will be revived; if you go to Asia, to China for example, it's a massive government agenda. So you have it all over the world and you definitely see it also in Latin America. [Audience] Hi. Thank you very much for being here with us Mr. Loescher. A question I have for you is the following. Over the past 100 years, the German precise traditional way of doing things has served Siemens very well in developing all this infrastructure that we see. Now we see a bigger trend towards need for innovation and more high speed. How do you manage to change that culture and foster this kind of Silicon Valley sort of culture inside such a big company? That's a very important question because at the end of the day, in any company, 90% of the innovation is happening outside the walls of the company. So we have a big program for example currently what we call internally open innovation historically our laps which we have already all over the world, we have one here on the West Coast, we have one in Princeton on the East Coast, we have it in Asia, we have it in Germany, we have it in 30 countries around the world where we have research and development activities ongoing currently. Number one, the network will be wider historically. Our research and developers have very much focused their time on what is happening in their own laps and now the focus is shifting and this is why we call it open innovation that we make sure where is in all the technology fields which are in our sphere of interest, where are the big partner networks, outside partner networks that we have to link with to make sure that we innovate faster relative to all competitors. So we have a big push basically driving the innovation agenda outside our own founder engaging with big research institutions or big universities or small companies and innovative companies to make sure that we have the most innovative network available to us in the big technology fields which are of our interest. That's a very important push, it's a very strategic one and this will be very important because there is nothing more democratic than innovation process around the world. And when you are looking to where big, big innovative centers are happening of course it's United States but when you just go by sheer size, if I give you the numbers right now, you have just graduations, okay I am talking about technical graduations; in Germany, we have roughly 45000 to 50000 technical graduates every year, in India there are 320,000, in China you talk about 800,000, there is a range between 800,000 and closer to a million. So we see very much the gravity centers of innovation changing, shifting and we have to take advantage of the fact that we are already present in 190 countries of the world and therefore we should have a very good advantage with great reputation in these markets that we are able to tap into these new networks. And then we have also a venture capital fund internally where for example the fund is available for internal research programs as well as for partner companies as well. [Audience] Hello sir, thank you. You talk here about, at the beginning you said setting vision and having clarity and strong leadership and I think very charismatic leadership but in some of our classes especially in OB we learn that sometimes it's good to use the high skills of the group to be facilitative, to be participative. So how do you balance those two? Yeah but this is exactly what I mean. I think at the end of the day it's always the team, okay. It doesn't matter who it is, an individual never really matters as much as any high performance team and this is why I have also pushed for example in the organization for diversity. I am on record as I said the management is too white, too male, too German when I joined the organization because I think you have to tap into the diversity pool. What you have is a global organization and when you have the great privilege that you are at home in 190 countries of the world, that you are able to track the best talents, to develop the best talents and make them available for the global organization from a team perspective as well as from an individual perspective. This is a very-very critical element and we have on top of individual responsibilities what you would be responsible for, many-many programs where we particularly look into initiatives, corporate leadership and pulling into these initiatives very diverse teams from all over the world to really help us to drive the change agenda. So that's at the cornerstone of what we try to do. But this is always in the framework of the clarity of vision what you try to have of an organization. So the teams, they really have to work towards the ultimate aim of the focus of the overall organization. But leveraging the diversity of team, I mean I don't have to explain this, this is probably one of the great-great privilege that you have of working together. [Audience] Thank you sir. My question is looking forward to the next 10 years what is the single most important strategic issue that you have to face as a CEO and how are you gearing the company to actually address that issue? It's the wrong question, I will tell you why. Because as an innovation company which is an infrastructure company, the innovation cycles of many of our products are going for example for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. For example, we are now bringing to the market the most energy efficient gas turbine of the world. The initial part of the development programs goes back to the early 90s. When we talk about the current high speed train which we are currently selling, the initial development programs go back to the mid '90s. So when we talk about the innovation agenda to be innovation leaders in the fields where we have focused on in the three sectors, we are looking way above the 10 years time horizon, we really have to look into 20 years. You can look from how you implement in terms of this the different strategies, you can look 5 to 10 years but when you then say okay what is our innovation advantage that we would like to see in this area, the time horizon is way, way longer than 10 years. So we set out as the strategic direction for the company being the green infrastructure pioneer. So the pioneering spirit what you have read in the case is very much at the forefront what we try to drive. So there is a big innovation agenda in all areas. There is not a single business field that we are looking for but we are looking to really making sure that the energy efficiency of all products going forward are significantly more energy efficient and that we drive the organization towards tailor-made solutions for big, big customers for example, which are not in the forefront of a classic Siemens customer. A classical Siemens customer would be if there is tender, if there is Palo Alto or anywhere else and they would say there is a great train that we would now like to develop and there is a tender process and then we would be off and running going after the tender. But to engage Masdar City and to say what can we drive together to help you to implement division of a CO2 free city environment and what can we from a technology perspective implement to link together the energy smart grid infrastructure with the smart building infrastructure that all the energy consumption which is happening in the city is able to communicate with each other and being optimized in terms of the energy efficiency of buildings, of energy flows across the city and therefore ultimately helps to drive massively down the energy costs of Masdar City. This is an innovation partnership what we are now pulling together with Masdar City. Classically speaking, there is no tender in this context but as I said a big, big strategic alliance where we work together with Masdar City to really drive it and that's at the forefront what Siemens is all about or Desertec where we basically try to harness the sun of Africa not just for the African countries themselves but also ultimately being available for importing towards Europe is a big vision which is 10 to 15 years out where we work with an innovation partnership together with the governments of Africa and with the European Union what is the right funding which is required, what is the technology which is already today available, High Voltage Direct Current technology so that we can transmit energy without any losses over long periods of time. So the big, big programs which are infrastructure programs going beyond one customer much more into a strategic alliance and innovation partnership is the big, big lever for the organization going forward and this is where we drive the strategic impact of Siemens versus just selling products and services and being attentive to tenders which we ultimately obviously have to do in all our business lines. [Audience] Sir, a quick follow up question. I see that vision, can you talk to us just quickly about how you translate that vision into execution by breaking it down for those--? So the vision Masdar City was a vision of the Abu Dhabi Government. So I engaged very much at the top level of the political environment of Abu Dhabi to say let's pull together a small team of your people who are responsible for Masdar City under the leadership Dr. Sultan who is the CEO of Masdar City and our team. So, the two of us then pulled an operational team together of creating a strategic alignment. We worked for 18 months because you have to really break it down what are the requirements of the city, how is the layout of the city, what are the different steps of phase one and phase two, it's now slightly delayed because of the impact of the current crisis but they are continuing with the vision. So we worked for 18 months and a week ago I was able to sign it in London. This is how we have worked and broken it down within a very specific initiative ultimately being able to be signed. [Audience] You said earlier one of your five values of leadership was to have a true north that transcends company values, company norms. Could you talk to us about your true north how you came to that true north and why that is your true north? I think this comes back, I say true north because it goes back, the first environment where you really learn about it are the values within your family. And the first role model for me personally was my own father. And then you have a lot of opportunities and privileges for a university like Stanford University where you probably have lot of leaderships in terms of ethics, ethical behavior and business ethics. And I for this reason for example have actually sponsored also an educational initiative at the Technical University of Munich to really provide these aspects at the university level because at the end of the day this goes back to families, the values of the families and the values of the education that you were brought up with. And then many of you I assure you, many of you in your life will be faced in one way or another to make a personal decision do I do something or I don't in different contexts you know sometimes cultural norms and then you have to say no, I live up to my own standards with my own norm and I am not willing to go for it. For example, this whole bribery case in Siemens; when you read the testimonies of people this is why I say this was a leadership crisis, this was not the cultural crisis of the community but this was a leadership attitude of some leaders who have decided a red line for me is not a red line. And when you then look into the testimonies that they have given, the classical testimony is well I have done it to the benefit of the company. Come on. People were pursuing this because they had sales incentives as well and ultimately they had made the incentive schemes. So this is what I mean, you don't have to talk about company values, this is the next level that you then have obviously and I would very much encourage you whatever organization you join make sure how are the company values not as values but how are they actually lived, who are the role models of the organization and who are the role models of leaders and can you relate to them. And if somebody asks you the most dangerous thing that you will encounter is I have to do things because everybody does, and it's up to each one of you to decide to say no I don't do it. And this is what I mean by true north, I have also encountered this in my professional life for sure. [Audience] Sir, you spoke about how young people are asking for more responsibility at an earlier age. For that model to work that means young people have to be able to accept and succeed with this more responsibility. So I wonder from your point of view do you believe that the skills and abilities of young people are changing commensurately with their changes and expectations and desires? What do you think about you here? [Audience] I think it comes back to your point about feeling privileged and I think sometimes it's important to recognize when we are feeling privileged and so sometimes this leads to an expectation that we deserve more. But I also feel and I am biased that we are capable of doing great things. So I wonder from an executive's point of view how you look at young talent that come into your company and hunger for the next step that are two steps ahead of them and are they ready for that? I watch very closely one thing, I watch very closely in terms of how people are performing in their current jobs and my alarm bells are going on if people continuously talk about the next step. In some instances it's probably very right and then the question is, is the person in a job who is too small for him or is he able to actually stretch himself or herself at the higher level. That is very dangerous. If you try to do things where you do things with the anticipation, I have a right of this and that and that, and this is a very, very valuable question what you ask, a very important one and to find the right balance can only be given at an individual basis. But never look out doing things in a certain way today because I expect something from the organization tomorrow. I think this can never work and will never work. Rather, try to look into finding an environment where you have a mentorship and a leadership environment where you can engage yourself and leverage yourself early on as part of a great performing team. Because early on in life the biggest lever that you have is the high performance team aspect which was asked earlier here. It's not individual, it's actually the team environment and then you will drive on it. The question can only be asked individually but it's a very, very important question that you have asked. [Audience, inaudible] The Stuxnet is a great business opportunity because now many industrial companies have realized the danger of being actually part of a portable computer or of a computer environment. And we produce in our automation control division actually proprietary solutions and since Stuxnet has hit, the drive to the little bit more expensive proprietary solutions from Siemens, the demand is going up. But it's a serious danger. I mean you have now asked about the danger, absolutely it's a danger there is no question. And we have now more and more customers who are looking into their industrial control environments to really make sure where are weak points so we are doing a lot of so-called health checks for many of our customers at this moment in time because this has obviously created a much heightened awareness compared to before. I would like to say thank you very much for attending [inaudible] today, we really appreciate you doing that.