Nathaniel Jarvis Wyeth

Transcription

>> I do some consulting work on American -- [ Multiple speakers ] [ Silence ] >> Satalia: You could say art is in her blood. Victoria Browning Wyeth is the great-granddaughter of illustrator N.C. Wyeth the niece of contemporary realist Jamie Wyeth and the only grandchild of iconic artist Andrew Wyeth. A docent of Wyeth art she began giving gallery talks when she was fifteen and continues to lecture extensively on the topic both in the US and abroad. We'll talk with her about growing up in the "first family of American art " about the lessons she learned at her grandfather's knee and about what she's doing with her degree in psychology. Here's our conversation with Victoria Browning Wyeth... >> Satalia: Victoria Wyeth welcome to the conversation. >> Wyeth: Thank you for having me! >> Satalia: What was it like growing up in what many consider the first family of American art? >> Wyeth: I mean to me it seemed really normal. You know I'd wake up you know in the summer and look outside and Andy would be outside painting. >> Satalia: Your grandfather? >> Wyeth: I'm sorry my grandfather. He hated me calling him grandpa because he'd say oh everyone will know how old I am. I'm like jesus you're 91 I think they know how old you are you know? But it just it seemed totally normal. The thing that kind of made it a little unusual was when I started to realize that all the people in the pictures were the people I was hanging out with. So you know you just have this epiphany all of a sudden and you know and then you realize like on his birthday for example in the summer the president would always call. So I pick up the phone this is the White House for Mr. Wyeth and I'd say Andy! You know? [Laughing] And I. >> Satalia: You literally called him Andy? >> Wyeth: Yeah! Always always. >> Satalia: And you called your your grandmother. >> Wyeth: I call her Betsy. >> Satalia: Betsy. >> Wyeth: When he pisses me off I call him grandpa just because it would get him so angry you know because it'd make him feel old or if we were in a big crowd I'd be like grandpa and he'd [grunting sound] you know he wouldn't look at me. Jamie's Jamie instead of Uncle Jamie but my parents are mommy and daddy. >> Satalia: [Laughing] You you started giving tours of the Wyeth Galleries at the Brandywine River Museum in Chadds Ford Pennsylvania when you were 15-years-old. >> Wyeth: I actually I started at the Farnsworth Art Museum when I. >> Satalia: In Maine? >> Wyeth: Yeah. When I was about 14 15 I didn't start at the Brandywine until 2004. I needed a summer job when I was like 14 15 and I loved my parents but they were giving me like five bucks a week for an allowance and it just wasn't cutting it so I started doing these tours and I really didn't understand exactly the I don't want to say the magnitude of what I was doing but kind of you know I would go home and I'd have all my questions. And Andy would sit there explaining them and. >> Satalia: So he encouraged you to do this? >> Wyeth: Oh totally yeah! And he told me what to say. I mean I had no I was 14-years-old and I'd have these crappy little note cards that I'd bring into the tour and I'd get so nervous because my mother would be there on the tour you know. >> Satalia: And and your mother of course is an art consultant. >> Wyeth. Of course. Yeah. >> Satalia: Your father was an art dealer. >> Wyeth: And so they you know they think they know everything about art history symbolism you know and all this and so mommy would be on the tour you know looking at me and I'd drop all the cards and kind of frantically pick them up but Andy was great! You know he I'd go home and he'd explain everything to me and it just got every summer it got better and better and then finally I started asking the questions and that's when I think everything really set in. >> Satalia: Well what people really like about those tours which you have since taken on the road is this insider's knowledge of the Wyeth family. >> Wyeth: See I don't get I mean I'm so I'm used to giving the tours so I don't when people say oh you make it come to life I'm just explaining them the way he explained it to me and so I guess it's just because he was my grandpa I can offer maybe a you know a different view than the art historian. >> Satalia: Well you mentioned symbolism and art historians are they love to say what an artist was thinking when they did this or that and you said your grandfather rejected that whole idea and there's there's one story in particular that I think is great. The painting is is Willard's Coat. >> Wyeth: Yes. Ah okay. So Willard was this wonderful African American guy that just showed up one day at the studio you know [knocking sound] knocked on the door and basically moved in for like 10 years. And he was very phobic of human skeleton. So Andy got a skeleton for painting for anatomy and Willard freaked out and left. And all he left behind was this apple and his jacket. >> Satalia: Did did he get that skeleton to make him leave? Or? >> Wyeth: No! He he just wanted it for anatomy but this is when you could buy real human skeletons not like the black market you know so this big skeleton comes in and Willard slips out and he leaves and he leaves behind this apple and the coat so Andy does this picture and calls it Willard's Coat. So I'm on the phone with my mom one day and she said yes the apple has deep significance it's symbolic meaning I said what are you talking about? Yes you know it it was symbolic of your great grandfather and he had apple orchards. >>Satalia: N.C. Wyeth. >>Wyeth: N.C. Wyeth right. It's so funny hearing it. N.C. Wyeth. Yeah N.C. And he was killed in a car accident so mommy said this was my grandfather's inability to deal with the death. So I'm I'm a snuggler and so Andy and I were snuggling one day and I said well this is what mommy said and he said that's ridiculous! And I said what do you mean? He said well Willard left and all he left was the apple. So I called up mom with Andy there told her what he said and I'll never forget he doesn't even understand the deeper meaning of his work and you know and it just to me that is an art historian in a nutshell. You know? They will sit there and say well this is what we thought the artist was thinking but unless you know unless you have letters journals forget it. You know this is what we think he might have thought but we don't know. >> Satalia: And what Andrew Wyeth actually said was he left the apple on the table and I like the way it looked. >> Wyeth: Exactly! Simple. Sometimes an apple's just an apple. It's not symbolic of you know the Garden of Eden and all this you know but people just can't let that go. >> Satalia: All all of this makes me curious because you got a a degree in clinical psychology in fact you worked for a number of years and still do in a psychiatrist hospital with a forensic psychiatrist and I'm wondering if understanding how people dissect what others are doing is part of what motivated you to do. >> Wyeth: No nothing one has nothing to do with the other. I wanted to do something that didn't have to do with my family. You know I also it's tough to come from a famous family when everyone's so talented I wanted to know that I got into the schools I got into because of this you know and and maybe I got in for you know because of my family but the grades I got weren't because of my family and I I love I really love seeing patients. It's really truly fun. You know? And I work with very violent-- >> Satalia: Criminally insane. >> Wyeth: Sex offenders is my area of they're called sexual paraphilias. But that's really my area of expertise and I love it. >> Satalia: So I I guess I'm trying to figure out how the the sort of carrying on the family story fits in with that other part of your life? >> Wyeth: It doesn't. It's just I've got you know the Victoria Wyeth and then I have just you know kind of Dr. Vic. I love it. You know? And it just it really I use my brain in a different way. You know right now I'm not seeing patients I'm just a research assistant and it's it's like peeking into other people's lives. You know I just get to you know find out everything about them and it's very fulfilling. >> Satalia: Was it at all difficult not to be artistic? And I I want to back up a little bit because you're a photographer and a very-- >> Wyeth: But I can't paint. I have no talent. >> Satalia: Does that bother you? >> Wyeth: I mean sometimes you know I mean it would be nice to able to paint. I I write my boyfriend letters whenever I lecture and I'll send him little sketches and he'll just he'll say well we're not going to sell this one you know? I mean I remember I sent him one of a mountain range and he said it was just zigzags across the page so I can't be bummed about something that there's just no possibility of of having. But I definitely hope that when I have kids it would be nice if you know. >> Satalia: It skipped maybe a generation. >> Wyeth: That would be awesome! >> Satalia: And and Andrew Wyeth had two sons Nicholas your father and Jamie your uncle and of course Jamie Wyeth is.-- >> Wyeth: A brilliant artist. Daddy's a very good artist too he just chose not to do it. And I remember I said why? And he said because my brother loved it. You know? And it's daddy was good at it but didn't love it. Jamie's brilliant at it but also loves it. So you have to have both. You know? >> Satalia: Your grandfather once said that your art goes as far as your love goes. >> Wyeth: Right. Exactly. You have to love something and that's the thing like I I love giving tours I love it! I mean it's so much fun whether it's for you know a nursing home of you know underprivileged people or you know the president of Poland it's awesome! >> Satalia: Which you actually did give. >> Wyeth: Yeah exactly yeah. But it just and so when I stop loving it I'll quit. Because it's like having a crappy teacher. No one wants a bad teacher it ruins it. So when I'm a bad teacher I'll stop. >> Satalia: Is it a way to stay connected to someone you were really close to and and most young people don't grow up knowing their grandfather as well as you did? >> Wyeth: That's a good question. I think that I enjoy giving the tours because when I'm speaking about him I can hear him in my head. You know? I have a a pretty good memory especially for auditory stuff and so I can you know even during a tour I can kind of hear him oh you forgot this you know and it'll kind of just pop in my head and it just makes me feel I guess yeah it makes me feel connected to him. I miss him so much! You know my my favorite time of the day is when I when I wake up first thing in the morning and I forget he's dead. You know? So I have like 30 seconds where I you know I'm like oh I'm going to see Andy today and you know and then kind of reality steps in. >> Satalia: It sounds like you had some pretty lively conversations he used to tell you to give them hell and break all the rules [laughter] and those kinds of things what's really the most lasting or memorable thing he ever taught your or or said to you? >> Wyeth: I think the last painting he described to me. He had come home in October in 2008 from Maine for from the summer and I didn't realize he was dieing you know. >> Satalia: He's 90 at this point? >> Wyeth: He he was 90. Or no he was 91. He had just turned 91 yeah and so he comes home with this big painting and I guess in retrospect he did not look good but I just sat there and asked about it and he just started telling me about it and I didn't realize that that was going to be the last time that we really kind of spoke in in depth you know? >> Satalia: You were one of the few people that he allowed or was comfortable having them watch him while he painted. Did you talk to him while he painted? >> Wyeth: No no no. >> Satalia: You just sat behind him and watched? >> Wyeth: Yeah I just sat there. I mean not for tempera like for watercolors. And I want to be clear like oh I'm going start crying and you're going to think I'm nuts. I I would walk in on him painting and just kind of sit there but I would never kind of just go and you know and and kind of invite myself for the whole thing it would be kind of when he was finishing up or something like that. Or I'd wake up and he'd just be kind of chilling outside painting and you know it was my house I'm not going I'm going to eat my Cornflakes and you know if it bothers him he can leave you know? >> Satalia: It's funny because part of the reason he didn't like people to observe him to watch him if I'm correct and and you know better was one it was such an intimate thing to him he said it was like watching him make love and the other was he didn't really want anyone's input. If somebody said I love it he thought that was bad because it would influence them and if they said they hated it it would do the exact same thing. >> Wyeth: One person got to see everything my grandmother. And she knew his work. I mean she knows his work. You know? Just I mean incredible incredible stuff. He would show sometimes to we have a wonderful housekeeper named Gail and he did this great picture called Airborne of all these feathers flying and he said what do you think of it? And she said well I don't like that one. And she came back the next day and he glued a huge feather on it he said what about now? And he took the feather off and he had removed it so I think that sometimes he would show it to people but he was so sensitive. He showed me this picture once called Other World and I didn't like the clouds I said I don't like it. And he said well I'm never painting again! And I said well that's too bad. You know? And end of the summer there's five new paintings. I said I I thought you weren't painting again? Well I changed my mind. You know he was very very dramatic. >> Satalia: And here he was the the most popular the most beloved living artist until he died. But on the other hand he he was also lambasted by some people who who thought his paintings were too real. >> Wyeth: Right. They called him an illustrator. I mean I remember when he died my two friends and I sat in my apartment reading all the obituaries and they were awful! I mean some of them were so nasty I remember the Wall Street Journal specifically and we so we wrote a nasty letter to the Wall Street Journal you know I mean I didn't sign it but you know of course I'm saying this on TV but great. But I mean I think. [Inaudible comment by Satalia] I know right? But they just didn't get it you know and that's why I do these lectures. I mean art is is complicated but if you understand that he is just painting things that have meaning to him so it might just be a you know a dumb mug to someone but if this is a mug that you know he got on his you know first you know honorary doctorate or something like that he's going to want to paint it over and over again because the feelings about the mug will change. >> Satalia: And it was all about the emotions wasn't it? He said that looking back there was a retrospective of his work and he said it was very difficult to look back at 70 years of work in part because all of those emotions came back. >> Wyeth: And he probably knew that was his last major retrospective I think he knew that he was going to you know not not last for that much longer. You know I remember I I called him while I was driving down the highway in Philly and there was this bus with his painting on it and I called him up I'm like Jesus Christ! You know you're on the bus! And he said I know! Isn't that something? I said well you better not die! He said I'm going to try you know and but it was like just hold on and he held on but I think that he knew that that was probably the last major. >> Satalia: Well well he was 88 that that last retrospective. 175 000 people went to see it. That was the most of any living artist for the Philadelphia Museum of Art. >> Wyeth: That was awesome. The first two days I sat at the entrance to the show shaking everyone's hand and it was so funny they said you mean he's not dead? I'm like I don't think so! You know are you sure? I'm like well let me check you know? But yeah I mean it was incredible. I mean the love that people have I mean I saw men I was giving tours there. I met this guy after I got out from the bathroom and he had flown in from Florida just to see the show and I got hell from the museum but I snuck him on my tour and he oh he was just so excited him and his you know his husband I mean it was just it was so cool. You know? It was really neat. >> Satalia: The guards at the Philadelphia Museum say that Christina's World they get the two top questions at the Philadelphia Museum of Art is everyone wants to know where where are the restrooms and the second thing is where is Christina's World? Which of course is. >> Wyeth: At the MoMA. Yep. Yeah. When I went I'll tell you a fun story. I went to the Museum of Modern Art right after he did. >> Satalia: Right. MoMA I'm about that. >> Wyeth: And there's this woman sitting outside you know kind of answering questions. And I said well what can you tell me about Christina's World? She didn't know who I was she said we can't stand it. I said really? I said now why is that? Well it just doesn't fit here and my best friend Adam took me and Adam's like Vicky just shut up you know and I thought okay and I remember you know revenge is a soup best served cold. So I waited and I went on national public radio and I told the whole story. So I think that's exactly what he would have wanted but it's you know so the museum might not like it some of the people there but the public they love it. Yeah. I mean my boyfriend's dad just went and just sent me a picture of everyone looking at it and I love it! You know? >> Satalia: Well you mentioned earlier that you actually got to know all of these people because they were fixtures. >> Wyeth: They were my babysitters. >> Satalia: When when you grew up. Which which makes me want to ask a couple of questions about Christina Olson she was 55-years-old at the time and and your father met her through your grandmother. >> Wyeth: First date with my grandmother. Can you imagine? Yep first date. >> Satalia: Most people don't realize that Christina Olson is is. >> Wyeth: Crippled. >> Satalia: Crippled. And the reason she is looking as she is in that in that picture is because she what did she have? Cerebral palsy? >> Wyeth: Well we don't this is where it gets tricky. We don't know what she had but whatever it was left her crippled and he said you know Vic I went there in 1937 and it took me you know 11 years to do that picture. He said I was up in the upstairs painting it's called Wind from the Sea with these curtains blowing and I look out and I saw her crawling across and I thought to myself well that's it! That's her world. That's how she gets around. So everyone said oh it's a painting about sadness you know melancholy. I never heard such stuff. I mean it's just I say its strength. I mean this woman is dragging herself up the hill tough lady. >> Satalia: You mention excuse me you mentioned N.C. Wyeth your great grandfather a moment ago who died tragically I think in 1945 he was crossing a railroad crossing and his car stalled. He had his 4-year-old grandson in the car with him. Your grandfather said one of his great regrets is that he never painted his portrait and gain a different feeling about portraiture in general. Did he ever paint your portrait? >> Wyeth: Yes. He painted my portrait several times. I do want to say one thing he did paint N.C. He drew him. >> Satalia: He drew him? >> Wyeth: With a pencil but it wasn't this official you know and so forth but it's interesting he never painted him after his death he painted so many model. >> Satalia: And he could have. >> Wyeth: He totally could have. >> Satalia: Because he did weren't most of his paintings done from imagination? >> Wyeth: A lot of them. >> Satalia: He didn't look. >> Wyeth: Exactly! >> Satalia: He didn't look at photographs. >> Wyeth: Very strange. I know the painting he didn't paint Christina after death or anything. Nor did Jamie. He never painted N.C. either. But yes he did paint me. He did all these little sketches when I was little but you can see as a 34-year-old I still can't sit still so little sketches when I was younger and then three major major pieces. It was weird though I was posing like half nude and I don't care how famous he is you know it's weird taking your bra off for your grandfather okay and then he gave me like saggy breasts and I was like seriously I was like you give them a lift! You know I'm like I'm 21 and so he gave them a lift. It was good [laughter]. I know isn't that terrible? >> Satalia: So [pause] I'm I'm curious I guess to know how you obviously influenced that particular picture but to what extent did your grandmother influence what he did? >> Wyeth: Amazing. I would say there's kind of there's Andrew Wyeth and Andy. And so Andrew Wyeth was definitely so influenced by my grandmother. You know [pause] I'm not married so I can't quite answer this but my grandfather said when you get married the wife kind of takes over the house you know when she decorates and so forth and so many of the portraits done at our houses are definitely a portrait of my grandmother. Everything's so organized the pink curtains seashells lined up but then you have these Andy watercolors that are just wild! I mean you know just pain splashed all over the place he's digging his fingernails and so forth stepping on things so I think that she helped center him and focus him. This man one day said your you know your grandmother has made your grandfather who he is and I got very upset and I got home Andy we had a fight. You know you can always tell when you're close to someone because you know fight with them. He said you don't understand she made me the man that I am. And I said but without your paintings you know you would be nothing. You know? And he said no you know you could have a brilliant artist but it's to have someone market him that is that is the key and she was brilliant. Even at 92 she's still sitting there. I was with her the other day and she said I want those pillows moved over there because they compliment the white. >> Satalia: [Laughing] Still in charge. >> Wyeth: They compliment the white in that picture still moving everything around. >> Satalia: Well then I'm really curious to know your take on the the Helga Rebellion. 15 years 240 portraits of Helga Testorf a German neighbor that were secret for years and when they were unveiled they made a an enormous splash. Did your grandmother really know about those paintings or? >> Wyeth: I don't think so. No I mean I think she would have put a stop to it. I mean she had seen a couple of them and you know was upset and said you know don't do anymore. But you know I'll explain this as like the art historian than as a granddaughter as a art historian this is the best thing he ever did. It's the most brilliant body of work I have never seen one American artist paint someone that consistently for so many years. As his granddaughter probably not the best thing you know I I feel badly when I have kids and you know they're in school and they Google their great grandfather before I have the chance to tell them that they'll see that so I think that sometimes artists do things and they don't maybe think about the consequences. >> Satalia: But the way he explained it was he needed to do something that was entirely his own not influenced by anybody else so. >> Wyeth: But he could have he could have painted trees you know? [Laughter] So I think it just it's you know it's tricky I mean that's why I don't date artists. You know? I would never be able to deal with that. It's just too much you know? I mean would you? I mean how would you feel if your husband you know spent all day painting someone nude you know and then came home to you. I mean it's got to be tough. She's a strong woman my grandmother she's she's tough you know and she ran that household let me tell you. >> Satalia: She she also apparently had an artist's touch when it came to creating a a homestead really on these islands in Maine >> Wyeth: Incredible. I mean she created these two little villages that are just I mean they're absolutely incredible. The Allen Island and Benner Island. It's quite remarkable. It's it's very private and you know these private little islands. But it's funny there's this boat that goes by every day at 2 and 5 and it's kind of like the Wyeth tour boat and so you know how do you explain this to someone? >> Satalia: You wave. >> Wyeth: So I wave. So I got out there with my iPhone and I videotape for my boyfriend everyone starts click clicking away and I said Andrew Wyeth's over there painting and they all turn their cameras you know trying to see is he really there? You know? So I guess I deal with it by just kind of laughing and so forth. >> Satalia: How how difficult was the is the the the Wyeth legacy for someone like Jamie Wyeth? >> Wyeth: I think he handles it really well. You know I think he is he's so smart about he always puts his artwork first you know but he's he's so sensitive to children and and the public and so forth. I think that he's doing I think he's doing a wonderful brilliant job. You know? I it was really hard. When when we all lost Andy he was the the glue. You know? He was the patriarch but Jamie-- >> Satalia: And Jamie grew up it seems so similarly to how Andy Wyeth grew up with his father teaching him and with his father with with him from both from early ages being homeschooled because their focus they both realized was art. >> Wyeth: Well actually Andy didn't teach Jamie Andy' sister Carolyn taught Jamie but Andy-- >> Satalia: He always had that influence. >> Wyeth: Exactly but Andy was always there you know and so they'd paint together but I don't I would call him kind of more of a yeah like an influence a mentor you know if you will. >> Satalia: What's the biggest Wyeth myth that you would like to shatter? >> Wyeth: That my family paints from photos. You know this idea that Jamie and my grandfather are sitting there clicking away its just ridiculous. You know? They are out there at 5 in the morning freezing! You know and then my uncle especially Jamie's wild! He's out there in the middle of winter painting icebergs floating by his hands he's freezing his teeth are chattering and that's love you know? >> Satalia: And the amount of research actually that went into for instance his portrait of of John F. Kennedy posthumously. >> Wyeth: Yeah incredible. >> Satalia: I mean hours and hours and hours. >> Wyeth: Studying his head [inaudible]. >> Satalia: Right. Studying the the the siblings so that he could get a feel for him I thought I can't believe anyone would go through. >> Wyeth: Jamie's understanding of anatomy blows me away. I mean he you know he went and took anatomy classes you know at at the Jefferson Medical School and even with these this obsession with ornithology he's got you know ornithologist's going out to the island telling him how to communicate with ravens and seagulls and in retrospect my uncle just kind of turned into a seagull one day and just kind of fly off [laughing] you know I mean he really is is something else but you know if you're going to do something do it. You know don't just kind of half-ass it you know? If you're going to paint go paint! You know if I'm going to lecture I'm going to really go wild. >> Satalia: You you learned that what you're saying right now at your grandfather's name. >> Wyeth: Definitely yeah and I learned that if you're going to do something you start young. He always told me when I have kids who say paint fine wait until they're 14 and then you pull them out of school and then you push. Like push them like no TV no video games no telephone just painting five six hours a day. I'm sure they'll hate me for it but that's how you do it. So. >> Satalia: Looking back on your grandfather's life and and the fact that a lot of people look at his paintings and and some see isolation and and loneliness. Do you think any of that is true of your grandfather? >> Wyeth: I mean I know him as this very affectionate loving person who gave the best hugs so I don't see that. I see some of the pictures are a result of pain I mean there's pain I mean his father got crushed by a train you know and I I think he just never never dealt that. I mean it was very hard you know? And so I think that we all have different ways to to show our pain I mean I chose to kind of take all the sadness of watching I mean I watched my grandfather die you know and instead of kind of becoming. >> Satalia: Peacefully at home though. >> Wyeth: Very peacefully yeah very peacefully but it's like yeah peacefully but it's look it's no fun watching someone you love die and he's sitting there wheezing and you know I mean it's hard and you can't do anything. >> Satalia: He had one lung. >> Wyeth: Right. He he had one lung and he he was not a happy camper you know he was definitely cranky. Yeah he was suffering he was cranky I mean it was just it was no fun. He couldn't eat you know and but I think you just you know I I think that he was a very happy person but I think he had the ability to tap into maybe a side of nature that we don't like to look at and you know I wouldn't call it sad but it's definitely it's it's not you know bright green with flowers everywhere but you know. >> Satalia: And and bright green with flowers didn't show up in too many of his paintings. >> Wyeth: No. I mean I'll tell you as soon as spring comes I hate it I absolutely hate it. I am a Wyeth 110 percent. [Laughter] You know I mean. >> Satalia: You like things in black and white subdued colors. >> Wyeth: I love it. I mean my boyfriend loves the summer and I'm just oh my god just counting the days and now I was so exciting driving up here I'm like everything's turning brown! I'm so excited! >> Satalia: Victoria Wyeth thank you so much for talking with us. >> Wyeth: Thank you for having me. >> Satalia: I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Victoria Browning Wyeth. Comcast subscribers can watch this program anytime on Penn State On Demand. Find out how through our website: conversations-dot-psu-dot-edu where you'll also find more on the art of Andrew Wyeth. I'm Patty Satalia. We hope you'll join us for our next "Conversation from Penn State!" [ Music ] [Silence] >> Production funding provided in part by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and by viewers like you. Thank you. >> This has been a production of WPSU.