George Sklar

Transcription

[ MUSIC ] >> HERE I AM. SO, WELL, SINCE A LOT OF YOU PROBABLY THINK THAT WE OF THE HOLLYWOOD PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY OF THE '30S AND '40S WERE JUST LIBERALS AND THAT HUAC UNJUSTLY ACCUSED US OF BEING COMMUNISTS. I WANNA PUT YOUR LITTLE MINDS TO REST AT THE OUTSET WHICH IS THAT I WAS A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FROM FEBRUARY '43 TO FEBRUARY '49 WHEN I LEFT THE COUNTRY. AND I'M VERY PROUD OF THOSE 6 YEARS. I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING STALINIST OR TYRANNICAL OR TERRIBLE. I'M REALLY PROUD OF ALL THE THINGS WE DID DURING THOSE YEARS. FROM BUILD OUR SCREENWRITERS GUILD AND I WON'T GO INTO THAT NOW, BUT WHAT I REALLY WANNA SAY IS I THINK ALL OF YOU WONDER HOW DID A 22-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO WAS BORN IN A PENTHOUSE AT 88 CENTRAL PARK WEST -- DOES EVERYBODY HEAR ME? HOW DID SUCH A GIRL BORN INTO A FAIRLY WELL-TO-DO FAMILY BECOME A COMMUNIST AND WHY? AND THAT IS-- THAT BRINGS US THE WORLD HISTORY, WHY? WHAT WAS THERE ABOUT THE '30S THAT WOULD HAVE MADE SUCH A PERSON DO THAT? WELL, FIRST OF ALL THERE WAS THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR. THERE WAS THE RISE OF FASCISM, THE RISE OF ANTI-SEMITISM IN GERMANY, NAZISM. BUT I THINK THE BIG THING THAT HIT ME DURING HIGH SCHOOL WAS THAT THE BOMBING OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION OF MADRID, SEEING A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT BOMBED AND PUT AN END TO. I THINK SPANISH CIVIL WAR AND THE RISE OF FASCISM WAS A BIG THING IN THE WAY I DEVELOPED. NOW, THERE WERE 2 OTHER THINGS. ONE WAS THAT YOU HAVE NO IDEA, IF YOU THINK WE'RE-- WE HAVE A RECESSION AND THAT MAYBE IT'S GONNA BE AN ECONOMIC DEPRESSION, YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT IT WAS LIKE IN THE EARLY '30S ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY. NOT A FEW HOMELESS PEOPLE ON CORNERS BUT WHOLE FAMILIES FOODLESS, SHELTERLESS, WITH NOTHING AND ALL OVER THE PLACE, MILLIONS AND MILLIONS. TO SEE THAT AND TO SEE CAPITALISM NOT WORKING MADE ONE WONDER WAS THERE AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM THAT DID WORK? AND OF COURSE, THERE WAS THE THIRD THING. THERE WAS A YOUNG COUNTRY THAT HAD FOUND AN ECONOMIC SOCIALISM AND SEEMED TO BE-- WELL, EVERYBODY WAS CERTAINLY EMPLOYED AT THE TIME WHERE WE HAD MILLIONS AND MILLIONS WHO WEREN'T. AND AT THAT TIME, IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO REALIZE, I'M NOT MAKING EXCUSES BUT YOU DIDN'T REALIZE THE TYRANNY, THE HORRIBLE-- THE WAY THAT STALINISM DEVELOPED. I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, YES, BUT WE'LL GO INTO THAT. SO, THERE WERE 3 REASONS WHY I BECAME A COMMUNIST. NOW, I DIDN'T BECOME A COMMUNIST JUST LIKE THAT. IN HIGH SCHOOL MY SISTER WHO WAS THE FIRST GIRL TO GO TO COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL CAME HOME THE FIRST DAY AND SAID, "HALF OF COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL IS TROTSKYIST AND HALF IS COMMUNIST." AND SO I SAID, "WELL, WHAT ARE YOU?" AND SHE SAID, "I'M GOING TO TRY TO BE AMERICAN SOCIALIST." THIS GIVES YOU A FEELING OF NEW YORK IN THE '30S. I THINK BY GOING TO THEATER WITH A MOTHER WHO JUST WANTED TO SEE EVERY PLAY, I WENT -- DURING JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL AND HIGH SCHOOL I WENT TO EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT AND EVERY SATURDAY NIGHT TO A PLAY ON BROADWAY. THAT MEANT THAT I SAW NOT ONLY ALL THE GREAT AMERICAN THEATER BUT IT MEANT I SAW THE GROUP THEATER, I SAW THE CLIFFORD ODETS' PLAYS AND THEY HAD A VERY BIG EFFECT ON ME, WAITING FOR LEFTY, THE PLAY ABOUT A STRIKE, AWAKE AND SING! AND THEN DOWN ON 14TH STREET, THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED THE THEATER UNION. AND THEY PUT ON A PLAY CALLED BLACK PIT WHICH WAS BY ALBERT MALTZ AND GEORGE SKLAR, LATER BLACKLISTED BUT IT GAVE YOU AN HONEST FEELING ABOUT MINORS IN AMERICA. ANYWAY, THERE WERE ALL THESE -- THERE WAS THIS ATMOSPHERE, REMEMBER, IN THE DEPRESSION AND IT WAS HARD NOT TO BE LEFT. NOW, I WASN'T SO LOVELY. AT HIGH SCHOOL, SOME KIDS FROM THE ASU CAME TO ME AND SAID, "WELL, YOU CERTAINLY WANNA JOIN THE AMERICAN STUDENT UNION. YOU'RE VERY, YOU KNOW, PROGRESSIVE AND SO FORTH." AND I SAID, "NO, I DON'T WANT TO. IT'LL KEEP ME FROM A GOOD COLLEGE." AND I WAS VERY CAREFUL EVEN IN COLLEGE AND I RAN AWAY TO RADCLIFFE, GIRL'S PART OF HARVARD AND EVEN-- IT HAPPENED AGAIN AND I WASN'T AFRAID OF NOT GETTING INTO SOMETHING RATHER BUT I WAS AFRAID OF ANY ORGANIZATION. I TELL YOU THIS BECAUSE UNTIL I WAS 21 AND WENT OUT TO HOLLYWOOD, I WAS VERY-- I TRIED NOT TO BE ORGANIZED IN ANY WAY AND MY SYMPATHIES WERE ALL OVER THE PLACE. I REMEMBER THAT AT HARVARD, I MAJORED IN GOVERNMENT AND MY TUTOR WAS FRITZ MORSTEIN MARX. HE WASN'T JEWISH BUT HE WAS A-- HE HAD ESCAPED FROM NAZI, GERMANY. HE HAD BEEN AN ADMINISTRATOR IN THE CITY OF HAMBURG. AND WHEN I INDICATED TO HIM HOW LEFT I WAS, HE SAID, "DON'T GET TAKEN IN," AND HE TALKED ABOUT THE TRIALS IN THE SOVIET UNION. SO, I WAS WARNED HITHER AND YON BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED. THIS WAS MY-- THE ARCH. I GOT MARRIED TO A GREAT SCIENTIST MY JUNIOR YEAR. HE WAS GETTING HIS PH.D. AT MIT AND THERE WOULD BE NO INFORMATION AGE, THERE WOULD BE NO COMPUTERS, THERE WOULD BE NO NOTHING YOU CAN GOOGLE HIM. HIS NAME, MY FIRST HUSBAND, WAS CLAUDE SHANNON, S-H-A-N-N-O-N. AND WHEN HE GOT HIS PH.D., AFTER -- WE GOT MARRIED IN MY JUNIOR YEAR AND WHEN HE GOT HIS PH.D., HE GOT A NATIONAL RESEARCH FELLOWSHIP IN MATHEMATICS TO BE -- THAT HE TOOK TO THE INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDY IN PRINCETON. NOW, BEING-- REMEMBER, I WAS A GIRL AND BEING A GIRL AND A WIFE OF THOSE DAYS, I FOLLOWED MY HUSBAND. I MISSED MY SENIOR YEAR AT RADCLIFFE, HOWEVER, I DID SOMETHING ALMOST BETTER. WHEN I WAS IN PRINCETON, I TRIED IN THE BEGINNING TO GO DOWN TO RUTGERS UNIVERSITY WHICH WASN'T THAT FAR AND THEY WANTED ME TO COME EVEN THE DAYS I DIDN'T HAVE CLASSES, THEY WANTED ME TO GO TO CHAPEL AT 8 O'CLOCK OVER ICY ROADS FROM PRINCETON TO NEW BRUNSWICK AND I DIDN'T WANNA DO THAT. SO INSTEAD, I WAS SORT OF HANGING AROUND THE INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDY WHERE MY HUSBAND WAS WORKING AND POURING TEA FOR EINSTEIN. I DIDN'T KNOW HIM WELL. I KNEW PICASSO WELL BUT EINSTEIN NOT WELL, HOWEVER, AT THOSE TEAS-- MRS. VAN ITTERSUM WHO WAS THE SECRETARY OF THE ECONOMIC SECTION OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS WHICH WAS NO LONGER IN GENEVA BECAUSE WORLD WAR II HAD BROKEN OUT AND THE ECONOMIC SECTION OF THE LEAGUE AND THE LEAGUE LIBRARY MOVED INTO THE INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDY, AND SHE HEARD ME TALKING FRENCH AND I WAS BILINGUAL, ENGLISH-FRENCH, AND SHE SAID, "WE NEED YOU." AND THAT WAS MY FIRST JOB. SHE TOOK ME UPSTAIRS TO WHERE 12 SCANDINAVIAN ECONOMISTS WERE WORKING AWAY. ACTUALLY, WHAT THEY WERE DOING WAS PUBLISHING WORLD PRODUCTION OF RICE, WORLD PRODUCTION OF WHEAT, THE STUFF THAT THEY HAD BEEN DOING IN GENEVA IN WHICH THEY COULDN'T DO ANYMORE THERE. SO, I SPENT A YEAR REALLY AROUND THEM AND WORKING FOR THE LEAGUE, AND I BEGAN TO BE VERY INTERESTED IN WHAT WAS THEN KNOW AS SWEDEN: THE MIDDLE WAY BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL DOWN TO THE LAST MAN. >> THERE WERE 12 MEN AND THEY WERE ALL FOR SWEDISH KIND OF SOCIALISM. SO, THERE WAS THAT AND AT THE END OF A YEAR OR 2 YEARS OF MARRIAGE ON-- WELL, IT WAS-- I WAS SORT OF MARRIED TO-- DID ANY OF YOU SEE A BEAUTIFUL MIND? [ INAUDIBLE AUDIENCE REMARK] >> THAT'S WHAT I WAS MARRIED TO AND I DIDN'T THINK I WANTED TO HAVE CHILDREN BY HIM AND I HAD [LAUGHTER] TO RUN FOR IT TO PRINCETON DUE TO THE TRAIN AT PRINCETON JUNCTION. ANYWAY, I CAME HOME TO MY MOTHER IN NEW YORK WITH A MASSIVE ALLERGY ATTACK. EYES RUNNING, NOSE RUNNING, EVERY-- I'VE NEVER HAD ALLERGY BEFORE. AND MY SISTER, THE LAWYER, SAID, "WELL, IF WE CAN GET HIM TO SIGN DIVORCE PAPERS, THEN YOU CAN GET A DIVORCE." AND I SAID, "YES, BUT HE DOESN'T WANT TO," AND SHE SAID, "LEAVE IT TO ME." AND SHE WENT DOWN TO PRINCETON AND SHE CONVINCED CLAUDE THAT I REALLY LOVED HIM AND IF HE GAVE ME A DIVORCE, WE COULD GET MARRIED AGAIN LATER AND EVERYTHING WOULD BE ALRIGHT. [ LAUGHTER ] >> HE SIGNED AND MY MOTHER AND I LEFT IMMEDIATELY FOR RENO. [ LAUGHTER ] >> WE FILED A DIVORCE AND WE DIDN'T STAY IN RENO. I JUST WANNA GIVE YOU THIS LITTLE HIGHLIGHT OF WHAT IT WAS LIKE. WE WENT DOWN TO LAS VEGAS FOR THE 6 WEEKS THAT YOU HAD TO STAY IN NEVADA TO HAVE YOUR RESIDENCE AND THERE WAS ONE HOTEL IN LAS VEGAS. IT WAS CALLED EL RANCHO VEGAS AND IT HAD IN IT A NIGHTCLUB AND A CASINO AND A RESTAURANT AND A CAFE AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS BUT THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE IN LAS VEGAS BUT THIS ONE HOTEL. AND OUTSIDE THERE WERE HORSES. SO I RODE EVERYDAY FOR 6 WEEKS AND AT THE END OF 6 WEEKS WHEN MY RESIDENCE WAS ESTABLISHED, MOTHER AND I WENT BACK TO RENO AND PICKED UP MY DIVORCE AND SHE SAID, "THERE'S SOMETHING I DON'T UNDERSTAND. WHY ARE WE GOING BACK TO NEW YORK WHEN WE'RE SO NEAR HOLLYWOOD?" AND YOU SEE, SHE HAD A SISTER AND IT WASN'T FOR HER SISTER'S SAKE WHO WAS OUT IN CALIFORNIA BUT FOR HER NEPHEW WHOM I THINK SHE WAS IN LOVE WITH AND WHOM LATER I WAS IN LOVE WITH. HE WROTE-- IF ANY OF YOU HAVE SEEN DESTRY RIDES AGAIN WITH MARLENE DIETRICH AND JIMMY STEWART AND ALL THE W.C. FIELDS PICTURES, AND HE WAS A LOVELY, CHARMING, WONDERFUL GUY. AND HE WAS PROGRESSIVE AND HE HELPED ORGANIZE THE SCREENWRITER'S GUILD. AND I ARRIVED ON MY 21ST BIRTHDAY, SEPTEMBER 15TH 1941, IN HOLLYWOOD. HE CAME TO PASADENA TO GET US ALL FOR THE CHIEF, TOOK US OUT TO THE BEVERLY WILSHIRE HOTEL AND STROLLED US AND HE SAID TO ME, "I'M COMING BACK FOR YOU LATER TONIGHT." REMEMBER, IT WAS MY 21ST BIRTHDAY. AND HE TOOK ME TO A SHOWING OF CHIPAYA, MY FIRST SOVIET FILM AND IN THOSE DAYS, SOVIET FILMS COULDN'T BE SHOWN IN CINEMAS. THEY JUST DIDN'T DO IT. THE HOLLYWOOD PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY HAD HAD TO RENT A HALL EITHER A VETERANS' HALL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS EXACTLY. BUT HENRY OPENED THE DOORS OF THIS HUGE HALL WHERE THERE ARE ABOUT 400 PEOPLE AND HE SAID "THIS IS THE HOLLYWOOD PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY." AND AS I WENT IN, I SAW LIONEL STANDER, HUMPHREY BOGART, ALMOST EVERYONE YOU CAN THINK OF WHO WAS PROGRESSIVE, EDWARD G. ROBINSON, GALE SONDERGAARD, STARS. OF COURSE, MOST OF THE 400 WERE WRITERS AND DIRECTORS AND WERE NOT STARS, BUT I DID SEE MANY FACES I KNEW FROM THE SCREEN. AND I GUESS I FELL IN LOVE NOT JUST WITH THE LOOK OF THEM BUT AFTERWARDS. THAT NIGHT, WE WENT TO THE TROCADERO WHICH WAS THE VERY IN NIGHT CLUB AT THE BASE OF SUNSET PLAZA DRIVE AND I WAS WITH VERA CASPARY WHO WROTE LAURA. IT PROBABLY DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU BUT THESE WERE ALL FILM PEOPLE AND I GUESS I WAS JUST GLAMORIZED, FELL IN LOVE WITH HOLLYWOOD PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY AND THEY SAID, "WELL, YOU SHOULD GO TO SCHOOL. THERE'S A SCHOOL FOR WRITERS IF YOU WANNA WRITE." NOW, THE REASON I WANTED TO WRITE WAS THAT WHEN I WAS 9 IN PARIS, MY PARENTS HAD TAKEN ME TO THE PARAMOUNT AND I HAD SEEN A FILM CALLED HOT NEWS WITH BEBE DANIELS AND SHE WAS A NEWSPAPER REPORTER, A SUBSISTER AND SHE JUMPED FROM ONE SPIKE OF THE STATUE OF LIBERTY TO THE OTHER. SHE JUMPED 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 TO GET A HOLD OF A MURDERER SHE WAS WRITING A STORY ABOUT. [LAUGHTER] WELL, THAT CONVINCED ME I WANTED TO BE A REPORTER AND I STUCK WITH THAT [LAUGHTER] AND REALIZED THAT I WANTED TO BE A WRITER AND WHEN I GOT TO HOLLYWOOD, I REALIZED I WANTED TO BE A SCREENWRITER WHICH EXPLAINS SOME OF THESE AND THE SCHOOL FOR WRITERS HAD-- WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF IT MEANS ANYTHING TO YOU, WALDO SALT TEACHING SCREENWRITING. ALL THE GREAT SCREENWRITERS YOU KNOW, TROMBO AND EVERYONE TAUGHT AT THE SCHOOL. SO, IT WAS VERY EXCITING AND MY FIRST YEAR WAS-- REALLY WENT BY BEFORE I MET MY HUSBAND WITH MERELY WRITING SCREENPLAYS. I DID GET MY JOB AS-- I WROTE A LETTER TO THE FOUR METROPOLITAN DAILIES, THE LOS ANGELES, THE TWO HURST PAPERS, AND THE LOS ANGELS DAILY NEWS AND THE LOS ANGELES TIMES AND I ASKED FOR A JOB AND THE ONLY ONE WHO ANSWERED WAS THE HERALD-EXAMINER, A HURST PAPER. JIM RICHARDSON SAID, "OKAY. SO COME DOWN NOW." AND WHEN I GOT DOWN THERE, DOWNTOWN L.A., HE SAID, "YOU KNOW, I DON'T REALLY WANT A GIRL IN THE CD ROOM. I HATE THE IDEA OF IT BUT EVERY TIME I BREAK IN A GUY, HE GETS DRAFTED AND ALL THAT TRAINING AND EVERYTHING GOES FOR NAUGHT AND I HAVE NO ONE. SO I'LL GIVE YOU A CHANCE." AND AT THE END OF THE FIRST WEEK, HE KNEW THAT I HAD LIED ABOUT MY NEWSPAPER EXPERIENCE AND I WAS ABOUT TO BE FIRED BUT I FELL ON A WONDERFUL STORY WHICH I'M NOT GONNA TELL YOU WHICH IS IN THE BOOK. [ LAUGHTER ] >> IN DOWNTOWN-- IN THE RED AND THE BLACK LIST. IN DOWNTOWN L.A. WHERE THERE WAS NOTHING, WE'RE TALKING 1942, IT WAS JUST BLACK NIGHT I SAW. WHEN I CAME OUT OF MY SUPPER ACROSS FROM THE PAPER, I SAW A BOY AND A DOG AND THE BOY WAS JUST PLOTTING ALONG, THE DOG WAS FOLLOWING HIM AND I WENT OVER TO THEM AND SAID, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING DOWNTOWN L.A.?" AND HE SAID, "I GOT MY DOG OUT OF THE POUND AND I'VE GOT A NICKEL FOR THE RIDE BACK TO SANTA MONICA BUT THE BUS WON'T TAKE ME WITH THE DOG." SO I SAID, "WELL, YOU COME UP STAIRS WITH ME AND I'LL DRIVE YOU BACK HOME TO SANTA MONICA." WELL, THIS BOY'S FATHER HAD JUST BEEN KILLED OVERSEAS. THIS BOY'S MOTHER WORKED IN A WAR FACTORY AND IT WOULD-- WELL, I TOOK HIM HOME AND I MEAN I WROTE THE STORY AND HE WAS-- FELL ASLEEP IN THE PHOTOGRAPHY ROOM AND MY FRIEND ABBY WHO COULD NEVER GET OUT ON A STORY, GREAT PHOTOGRAPHER, TOOK A PICTURE OF THE BOY SLEEPING ON THE DOG AND I WROTE THE STORY AND THE NEXT MORNING WHEN I CAME IN AND JIM RICHARDSON THOUGHT, "BARZMAN." AND I THOUGHT, "WELL, NOW IT'S SIX DAYS AND HE'S GONNA FIRE ME." IT'S THE SEVENTH DAY [LAUGHTER] AND HE THREW THE NEWSPAPER AT ME. IT WAS IN TWO SECTIONS. THE SECOND SECTION WAS THE WHOLE PAGE. THE TOP HALF WAS THE BOY ASLEEP ON HIS DOG AND THE BOTTOM HALF WAS MY STORY WITH A BY-LINE ON MY SIXTH DAY AT THE PAPER. [LAUGHTER] SO THEN, MR. HURST CALLED [LAUGHTER] FROM THE RANCH AND SAID THIS WAS THE KIND OF STORY HE WANTED IN THE PAPER AND HE WAS WATCHING MY CAREER AND NOW, NOBODY COULD FIRE ME. [LAUGHTER] JIM RICHARDSON WANTED TO AND THE MANAGING EDITOR WANTED TO AND MANAGING EDITOR WANTED TO EVEN MORE AND LATER ON, STILL MORE BECAUSE HE PUT AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER WITH A REVOLVER ON EACH HIP FOLLOWING ME AND WHO CAME BACK AND SAID I WAS RED AND SO, MR. [INAUDIBLE] THE MANAGING EDITOR TOLD JIM RICHARDSON TO FIRE ME AND JIM RICHARDSON SAID, "I CAN'T. MR. HURST LIKES HER." [LAUGHTER] SO THEN, THEY CALLED MR. HURST AND WHO SAID, "I DON'T CARE WHAT SHE IS. SHE IS A GOOD REPORTER." >> SO I WAS SET [LAUGHTER] AND THEY COULDN'T FIRE ME AND THEN I MET MY HUSBAND AND WELL, IT WAS LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT AND YOU'LL READ THAT IN THE BOOK TOO. [LAUGHTER] I THINK YOU WILL BECAUSE WE HAD A GREAT LIFE ACTUALLY IN THOSE FIRST YEARS OF THE PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY AND I'LL TELL YOU THE KIND OF THING WE DID THAT I AM PROUD OF. IN THE FIRST PLACE, MOST OF OUR WORK WAS IN THE GUILD, IN TRYING TO GET PENSIONS. YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY, MEMBERS OF THE GUILD WHO ARE FRIENDS OF MINE, DON'T REALIZE THAT WE REALLY STRUGGLED FOR EVERY CREDITS, PENSIONS, THE WHOLE BIT. SO, THAT'S ONE THING WE DID AND ALSO, IT WAS THE ROOSEVELT YEARS AND WE CANVASSED OR WE DID, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL ELECTION WORK AND SO FORTH. BUT WHAT WE REALLY DID, THE HOLLYWOOD PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY, AND I'M TALKING ABOUT ALL CARD-CARRYING COMMUNISTS, WE DID VERY WONDERFUL THINGS IN THE COMMUNITY. FOR EXAMPLE, MAYBE SOME ARE A LITTLE BIT-- WE HEARD THAT THE LETTUCE WORKERS IN THE SALINAS VALLEY HAD ONLY VERY SHORT TOOLS AND WE HIRED A TRUCK AND WE BOUGHT LONG, LONG, YOU KNOW, SO THAT THEY WOULDN'T HURT THEIR BACKS, LONG HANDLED TOOLS AND WE BROUGHT THEM UP THERE TO THE SALINAS VALLEY. WHAT ELSE DID WE DO? THE SLEEPING LAGOON, KIDS WERE UP FROM A MURDER THAT THEY HAD BEEN ON ONE SIDE OF L.A. AND THEY WERE CHARGED WITH A MURDER ON THE OTHER SIDE WHERE THEY COULDN'T HAVE BEEN. WE RAISED THE MONEY FOR THEIR DEFENSE. WE TOLD PEOPLE ABOUT IT. WE WROTE FOR THE PEOPLE'S WORLD AND THE DAILY WORKER, AND WE REALLY CARRIED ON A VERY WONDERFUL COMMUNITY WORK. EVERYTHING WE DID WAS VERY EXCITING AND WONDERFUL AND WE SAW THE FRUITS OF WHAT WE DID AND WE-- BUT MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING, I DON'T THINK THERE WAS EVER A COMMUNITY LIKE THIS, MAYBE ATHENS WHERE INTELLECTUALS, CREATIVE PEOPLE HELPED EACH OTHER, WERE EXCITED ABOUT EACH OTHER'S PROJECTS AND DIDN'T EXPECT ANYTHING FOR THEMSELVES. IT WAS AN ATMOSPHERE WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT ANYMORE BUT THAT WAS VERY, VERY WONDERFUL. AND THEN, OF COURSE, LYING IN WAIT WAS REACTION. ALL THE PEOPLE WHO'VE-- WELL, AND ESPECIALLY THE STUDIOS WHO DID NOT LIKE-- WHO HAD STARTED A COMPANY UNION AND DID NOT LIKE THE FACT THAT THE SCREENWRITERS GUILD WAS BEING FORMED AND BEING USED AND SO FORTH, SO THE-- WELL, THE-- [PAUSE] I GUESS WHAT I REALLY WANT TO DO IS JUMP A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE THIS PERIOD THAT WAS SO GOOD IN HOLLYWOOD WENT BY VERY FAST. IT WAS REALLY FROM '41 TO '47 AND AT THE END OF THE WAR AND I DO WANNA SAY ONE THING ABOUT THAT I NEVER WOULD HAVE JOINED THE COMMUNIST PARTY IF I HAD GOTTEN OUT TO HOLLYWOOD IN JUNE OF 1941, BEFORE JUNE 22ND WHEN THE SOVIET UNION WAS ATTACKED BY HITLER, BY THE NAZIS. IF I HAD COME OUT EARLIER, I WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT. BUT YOU MUST REALIZE THAT BY SEPTEMBER, THE SOVIET UNION WAS REALLY FIGHTING OUR BATTLE, WAS FIGHTING THE NAZIS AND IT'S SEEMED-- IT DIDN'T SEEM SO IT WAS A TERRIBLE THING AT ALL TO-- OH, ONE THING THAT I SHOULD TELL YOU. I DIDN'T LIKE IT WHEN I DISCOVERED THAT THE PARTY IN HOLLYWOOD, NOT IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY BUT THE PARTY IN HOLLYWOOD WAS UNDERGROUND, YOU COULD NOT TELL PEOPLE THAT YOU WERE A MEMBER. YOU HAD TO HIDE IT. NOW, WHY WAS THAT? AT FIRST I SAID, "THIS IS NOT GOOD. I DON'T WANNA DO THAT." AND MY HUSBAND BEN EXPLAINED TO ME THAT NONE OF US WOULD HAVE JOBS. THE STUDIOS WOULD NOT HAVE EMPLOYED US. WE NEVER WOULD HAVE HAD ANY JOBS IF IT WAS KNOWN THAT WE WERE COMMUNISTS. SO-- BUT I DIDN'T LIKE THAT. I GUESS IT'S SORT OF FUNNY THAT-- OH WELL, I'M HAVING A PROBLEM BECAUSE I KNOW THAT I'M TALKING TOO LONG ABOUT THE BEGINNING AND THERE'S SO MUCH TO TELL. SO THAT'S WHY THE STUTTERING, THE STAMMERING AND WONDERING, WHICH THING TO TELL YOU. WHEN THE-- AT THE END OF THE WAR WHEN PEOPLE LIKE GINGER ROGERS'S MOTHER AND ADOLPHE MENJOU AND-- BEGAN TO SPONSOR THE HUAC, THE HOUSE UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE AND BE FRIENDLY WITNESSES, WE REALIZED THE BAD TIME WAS COMING BUT WE DIDN'T REALIZE HOW QUICKLY AND HOW BAD BECAUSE THE MINUTE THE WAR WAS OVER AND THE-- ACTUALLY, WE WERE SITTING-- BEN AND I WERE SITTING ON OUR LAWN AT 1290 SUNSET PLAZA DRIVE WHEN A BEAUTIFUL BLONDE IN A CONVERTIBLE TURNED INTO OUR DRIVEWAY AND OF COURSE, I'VE LEFT OUT ONE THING. THAT IN 1947, SEPTEMBER, 19 PEOPLE WERE SUBPOENAED TO GO TO WASHINGTON TO TESTIFY AND THEN THAT WAS WEEDED DOWN TO THE HOLLYWOOD 10 AND THE 10 WENT TO WASHINGTON AND STARS LIKE LAUREN BACALL AND HUMPHREY BOGART AND-- WENT TO PROTEST THE HEARINGS. YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT SO THAT YOU'LL UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN THE BEAUTIFUL BLONDE TURNED INTO OUR DRIVEWAY IN THE CONVERTIBLE AND DIDN'T SEEM TO WANNA GET OUT, SHE SEEMED THAT WANT TO TELL US SOMETHING BUT SHE SEEMED FRIGHTENED AND I SAID, "WELL, COME ON OUT. WHAT IS IT?" AND AT FIRST SHE SAID, "OH, WELL, YOU'RE HAVING DRINKS ON THE LAWN AND IT LOOKS SO NICE." AND I SAID, "THAT'S NOT WHY YOU TURNED IN HERE. WHAT IS IT?" AND SHE SAID, "I WANNA WARN YOU. AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR HILL, THERE ARE TWO SHERIFF'S CARS AND THERE ARE GUYS AND THE SHERIFFS STOPPING EVERY CAR COMING UP THIS HILL AND ASKING EVERY CAR ARE THEY COMING TO NUMBER 1290 SUNSET PLAZA DRIVE? THAT'S YOUR HOUSE." AND SHE SAID, "DID ANYTHING HAPPEN HERE? IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG?" AND WE SAID, "NO, NO." AND SHE SAID, "WELL, THEY'RE TAKING NAMES AND THEY'RE WATCHING IT AND SO FORTH." AND THEN BEN SAID, "WELL, YOU KNOW, WE WERE GOING TO HAVE A MEETING OF THE [STUTTERING] COMMITTEE TO DEFEND THE HOLLYWOOD 10 WHICH WAS HEADED BY BOGART AND BABY BACALL." BUT WHEN THEY GOT BACK FROM WASHINGTON TO WARNER BROTHERS, THEY WERE TOLD THAT IF THEY STAYED ON THAT COMMITTEE THEY WOULD BE SUSPENDED. IMAGINE TO TWO STARS LIKE THAT, JACK WARNER SAID THEY WOULD-- THEY WOULDN'T WORK. THEY WOULD BE SUSPENDED. SO ANYWAY, THAT WAS THE MEETING. WE WERE GOING TO HAVE A MEETING AT OUR HOUSE BUT THEN THE COMMITTEE WAS SUSPENDED AND WE DIDN'T HAVE THE MEETING. SO THAT MUST HAVE BEEN WHY WE WERE BEING WATCHED BUT THIS BEAUTIFUL BLONDE SAID, "WELL, I JUST WANTED TO WARN YOU. I DON'T LIKE THIS SORT OF THING THAT'S HAPPENING NOW." AND SHE SAID, "I'M ON MY WAY UP TO JUDY GARLAND'S AND THERE'S A PARTY UP THERE AND I'M JUST AN ASPIRING YOUNG ACTRESS MYSELF." AND SHE SAID-- I SAID, "MY NAME'S NORMA," AND I SHOOK HER HAND AND SHE SAID, "MY NAME'S NORMA TOO." [LAUGHTER] AND I DIDN'T-- WE DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL TWO YEARS LATER IN PARIS SITTING AT A CAFE ON THE [INAUDIBLE] WHEN BEN HELD UP TO PARIS HERALD TRIBUNE AND HE SAID, "MY GOD! IT'S THE BLONDE IN THE CONVERTIBLE." SHE IS MARILYN MONROE. [LAUGHTER] SHE WAS NORMA JEAN. SHE JUST SAID, "MY NAME'S NORMA TOO." ANYWAY, SO WE WERE WARNED. NOW THE NEXT THING THAT HAPPENED, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE 19 WHICH BECAME THE 10, THE 10 WERE IN CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS AND WERE BLACKLISTED AND EDDIE DMYTRYK WHO WAS A FRIEND OF OURS COULDN'T WORK ALL THAT YEAR AND IN DECEMBER OF '48, AFTER NOT WORKING, HE SOMEHOW GOT IN TO MGM WHERE BEN WAS STILL WORKING. BEN WAS NOT YET BLACKLISTED AND HE WAS WORKING ON A LANA TURNER PICTURE AND I-- THE PEOPLE WHO WERE BLACKLISTED, THE HOLLYWOOD 10 COULDN'T GET INTO ANY STUDIO. I DON'T KNOW HOW EDDIE DMYTRYK MANAGED TO GET IN BUT HE CAME IN. >> HE GOT TO BEN'S OFFICE AND HE THREW A BOOK DOWN ON BEN'S DESK AND HE SAID, "YOU'RE GONNA DO THIS." THE BOOK WAS CHRIST IN CONCRETE, A MARVELOUS BOOK THAT I HAD LOVED IN COLLEGE AND BEN SAID, "WELL, HOW CAN I DO IT? I'M DOING THIS LANA TURNER, I'M MIDWAY IN THAT THING." AND HE SAID, "YOU'LL DO IT. YOU OWE IT TO ME." AND BEN SAYS, "I CAN'T. HOW CAN I WRITE TWO THINGS AT THE SAME TIME?" AND EDDIE SAID, "WHAT ABOUT NIGHTS AND WEEKENDS?" AND BEN LOOKED AT ME AND HE SAID, "I'M GONNA DO THIS NIGHTS AND WEEKENDS?" AND I SAID, "YES, BECAUSE IT'S A WONDERFUL PROJECT. IT'S EVERYTHING WE EVER WANTED TO SAY. IT'S THERE. IT'LL MAKE A GREAT FILM AND YES, YOU SHOULD DO IT." SO BEN DID IT NIGHTS AND WEEKENDS AND THIS IS HOW WE DIDN'T FLEE EXACTLY, YOU SEE. THIS IS HOW WE GOT TO ENGLAND AND THEN TO FRANCE, BECAUSE BEN WROTE IT. I TYPED IT. WE CALLED EDDIE AND THE PRODUCER WHO WANTED TO DO IT, ROD GEIGER. AND THEY CAME ONE DAY AND THEY EACH READ A SCRIPT AND THEY DIDN'T SAY IF IT WAS GOOD, BAD, OR INDIFFERENT. EDDIE HAD SAID, "IF YOU DO THIS, I THINK I CAN GET IT MADE IN ENGLAND." AND THEY TOOK THE SCRIPTS WITH THEM AND THEY LEFT WITHOUT-- I MEAN HARDLY SAYING ANYTHING. AND THEN A PHONE CALL CAME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOURS AT THOSE TIMES. IT CAME FROM ENGLAND AND IT WAS EDDIE AND HE SAID, "I THINK WE'VE GOT A DEAL. I THINK WE GOT A PRODUCTION FOR CHRIST IN CONCRETE." "I HAD A BAD MOMENT," HE SAID, "BECAUSE J. ARTHUR RANK." YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE GUY WITH THE, YOU KNOW, WHO STRIKES THE GONG. BEFORE HE WAS KNIGHTED, MR. RANK SAID, "MR. DMYTRYK, THERE'S JUST ONE QUESTION I WANNA ASK YOU," AND HE THOUGHT, "OH MY GOD, HERE COMES THE 64-DOLLAR QUESTION." "ARE YOU OR HAVE YOU EVER"-- BUT IT WASN'T. MR. RANK SAID, "MR. DMYTRYK, DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD?" AND EDDIE STOPPED FOR A MINUTE AND THOUGHT AND HE SAID-- PUT OUT HIS HAND AND SAID, "WELL, IF I DIDN'T, I DO NOW." [ LAUGHTER ] >> AND EDDIE SAID, "WE'VE GOT A DEAL IF YOU GUYS CAN GET ON THE QUEEN MARY IN NEW YORK ON WEDNESDAY." I THINK IT WAS FRIDAY, AND SOMEHOW OR RATHER WE DID IT. WE TOOK MY MOTHER WITH US. WE SAID GOODBYE TO BEN'S MOTHER WHO SAID "I UNDERSTAND. THERE ARE COSSACKS AFTER YOU." AND BEN SAID, "NO, THEY'RE NOT COSSACKS, THEY'RE US CONGRESSMEN." [LAUGHTER] AND SHE SAID, "COSSACKS COME IN ALL DIFFERENT SHAPES AND FORMS. GO WHERE THERE ARE NO COSSACKS." SO, WE WENT AND WE ARRIVED IN ENGLAND WHICH STILL FELT LIKE THE WAR. IT HAD RATIONING. I WAS PREGNANT. WE HAD A 3-YEAR-OLD AND 2-YEAR-OLD AND ONE IN MY TUMMY, AND I WAS ALLOWED ONE EGG A WEEK. I TELL YOU THIS BECAUSE THE FOOD IN ENGLAND, THOSE 3 MONTHS OF MAKING CHRIST IN CONCRETE WAS REALLY-- WELL, IT JUST WASN'T THERE. SO WE WERE VERY EAGER TO HAVE A WEEKEND AT LEAST IN PARIS, WHICH HAD FOOD. [ LAUGHTER ] >> AND WE-- THE PRODUCER CHARTED THE PLAY AND THEN WE WENT WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE AND WHEN WE GOT THERE, I SAID, "BEN, YOU KNOW, WE ALWAYS SAID THAT IF WE GOT TO PARIS, WE WOULD LOOK UP THAT GUY WHO USED-- WHO SPENT THE WHOLE-- ALL OF WAR YEARS NEAR SUNSET PLAZA DRIVE, OUR NEIGHBOR VELODIA [PHONETIC]. HE WAS JEWISH, HE WAS RUSSIAN, HE WAS FRENCH, HE WAS A COMMUNIST. AND SO, THE WAR YEARS HE SPENT IN AMERICA. I SAID, "YOU SAID WE'D LOOK HIM UP." AND BEN SAID, "BUT WE DON'T HAVE HIS PHONE NUMBER," AND I SAID, "YES, BUT WE KNOW WHERE HE LIVES." WE WALKED 5 FLIGHTS AND THERE WAS VELODIA, VLADIMIR POZNER AND HE WAS WRITING AWAY AND HE HUGGED US AND SAID, "OKAY. THIS IS WONDERFUL. YOU'RE JUST AT THE RIGHT MOMENT." HE PUT US IN HIS PEUGEOT, DROVE ACROSS TOWN AND TOOK US TO A PLACE CALLED THE MAISON DE PENSEE, THE HOUSE OF THOUGHT. AND HE OPENED THE DOORS. IT WAS VERY MUCH LIKE THAT FIRST NIGHT IN HOLLYWOOD, THE HOLLYWOOD PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY. THIS WAS THE PARIS PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY AND THEY'RE WITH THE FACES. MY GOD, IF THERE WASN'T PICASSO AND SIMON SIGNORE AND IVES MONTAGNE AND EVERYONE YOU CAN THINK OF. ALSO, TRIOLI, ALL LEFT INTELLECTUALS OF FRANCE AND VELODIA TOOK US OVER TO PICASSO AND INTRODUCED US AS HOLLYWOOD SCREENWRITERS AND PICASSO HUGGED ME AND SAID, "WE ARE THE SAME." AND I THOUGHT SAME? I'M NOT SPANISH. I'M NOT A PAINTER. HE SAID, "EXILE, EXILES!" AND BEN DREW HIMSELF UP TO HIS FULL 5 FEET 4 AND A HALF AND SAID [LAUGHTER], "WE'VE ONLY BEEN AWAY FROM THE STATES FOR TWO AND A HALF MONTHS," AND PICASSO ROARED AND SAID, "EXILES WHO DON'T KNOW YET THEY'RE EXILES!" [ LAUGHTER ] >> AND HE TOOK US AROUND TO ALL THE WONDERFUL PEOPLE, INTRODUCED US AS EXILES WHO DON'T YET THEY'RE EXILES. ANYWAY, I MADE UP MY MIND THAT WEEKEND THAT WE MUST COME AND LIVE IN FRANCE. I THINK ENGLAND WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR BEN IN TERMS OF SCREENWRITING. I THINK HE WOULD HAVE HAD MORE JOBS IN THE BEGINNING. AFTERWARDS, HE HAD JOBS EVERYWHERE AND I SHOULD HURRY TO THE POINT WHERE WHEN WE DID COME TO LIVE IN FRANCE, WE COULDN'T BE POLITICAL AT ALL. WE COULDN'T EVEN MARCH IN ANYTHING. WE COULDN'T-- ANYTHING BECAUSE WE WOULD HAVE BEEN THROWN OUT IN 24 HOURS. AND IT LOOKED AS THOUGH-- SOMETIMES IT LOOKED AS THOUGH THERE WAS NO WAY OF OUR GETTING PAPERS. SO, WE PUT OUT A FILLER, ONE OF THE EXILES, THERE WAS JOHN, JOHN BARRY, JACK BARRY THE DIRECTOR, AND JULES DASSIN THE DIRECTOR AND LOT OF SCREENWRITERS. AND WE SAID TO-- ONE OF US KNEW THE CULTURAL ATTACHE AT THE ISRAELI EMBASSY AND WE SAID SUPPOSE-- NOW, THIS WAS ONLY BECAUSE WE THOUGHT WE MIGHT BE THROWN OUT OF FRANCE AND COULDN'T GO BACK TO AMERICA. WE SAID, "WHAT IF WE FORMED A CREATIVE [INAUDIBLE]? WOULD ISRAEL LIKE US TO-- CAN WE PRESENT THIS," WE SAID, "TO THE CULTURAL ATTACHE." AFTER ALL, ACTUALLY, 2 OR 3 TERRIFIC DIRECTORS AND 2 OR 3, 4 GREAT SCREENWRITERS, MICHAEL WILSON, BEN, OKAY. SO SHE SAID, "I WILL DO IT." AND IN 3 WEEKS, SHE HAD AN ANSWER. SHE CALLED US [INAUDIBLE] AND WE HAD A LOVELY LUNCH. SHE SAID, "THE ANSWER IS UNFORTUNATELY-- THEY WOULD LOVE IT BUT UNFORTUNATELY, THEY THINK THAT AMERICAN JEWS WOULD NEVER GIVE ANYMORE MONEY TO ISRAEL IF THEY DID IT." IT'S VERY QUIET IN HERE. I DON'T HEAR EVEN A GASP. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING? [LAUGHTER] I'M SAYING THAT HERE WAS THIS FANTASTIC GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO COULD HAVE MADE FILMS IN ISRAEL AND WHO ARE WILLING TO GO AND DO IT AND THEY WERE TOO AFRAID THAT MOST OF THE MONEY THEY GOT FROM AMERICAN JEWS, FROM REACTIONARY JEWS WOULD NOT LIKE IT AND WOULD NOT GIVE ANYMORE MONEY. I GUESS YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT. IT JUST GOT VERY QUIET. [ LAUGHTER ] >> WELL, THE NEXT-- THOSE FIRST FEW YEARS, I WANNA SAY-- I'LL TRY TO SAY IT FASTER AND THAT'S THIS. WE WERE SO LUCKY. WE WERE SO FORTUNATE TO BE IN ENGLAND, IN FRANCE, TO GO TO ITALY, TO BE IN EUROPE WHERE WE WERE SO WELCOMED, SO WELCOMED. [ LAUGHTER ] >> AND SO, YES, SO WELCOMED THAT BY EVERYONE, IT WAS A MARVELOUS THING BECAUSE, OF COURSE, WE HADN'T REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT IT. AT LEAST HALF FRANCE WAS COMMUNIST SO WE DIDN'T, YOU KNOW-- AND WE THAT WEREN'T COMMUNISTS ANYMORE. WE WERE JUST NOTHING BUT EXILES. BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS THIS. THOSE FIRST YEARS WERE VERY ROUGH. WE DIDN'T GET MUCH-- I WROTE TELEVISION AND A LOT OF THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO CAME OVER DRAWING ME AND WRITING TELEVISION. THERE WAS A WONDERFUL WOMAN WHOM YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT. HER NAME WAS HANNAH WEINSTEIN. SHE WAS A BIG ADVERTISING EXECUTIVE IN NEW YORK AND SHE USED TO PUT ON THE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN PROGRESSIVE MEETINGS. AND WHEN SHE GOT FIRED FROM HER JOB, SHE WENT AROUND THE STATES RAISING MONEY SO THAT SHE COULD BUY A STUDIO IN LONDON AND EMPLOY BLACKLISTED SCREENWRITERS ON TELEVISION SERIES AND THAT, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW, BUT THOSE WERE THE ROBIN HOODS OF THOSE DAYS. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THAT, BUT WE ALL WROTE A LOT OF ROBIN HOODS. >> AND THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER SERIES THAT SHE DID AND FOR THOSE FIRST 5 YEARS, WE ALL HAD A LOT OF TROUBLE WITH MONEY. WE HAD NO JOBS. WE DID A LITTLE TELEVISION. EVEN WHEN BEN WAS EMPLOYED, FREQUENTLY HE WASN'T PAID AND EVEN WHEN HE WAS PAID, IT WAS VERY LITTLE. SO, THERE WERE HARD TIMES AND THE OTHER THING ABOUT PARIS WAS EVERY 3 OR 4 MONTHS WE HAD TO MOVE. I'M TELLING YOU THIS BECAUSE THE FBI, WHEN I CALLED FOR FBI FILES, HAD EVERY ADDRESS THAT WE HAD BEEN AND DURING THE FIRST 5 YEARS OF LIVING IN FRANCE WE-- IF IT WAS EVERY 3 MONTHS, WE HAD TO MOVE, 3 OR 4 MONTHS. YOU CAN SEE THERE WERE ABOUT 15 PLACES, WHATEVER IT WAS. IT WAS MANY, MANY ADDRESSES. THEY KNEW EVERY-- THEY TRACKED US. THEY-- AND IT WAS HARD LIVING. I SAY THIS BECAUSE ON THE WHOLE, IT WAS MAGNIFICENT. WE SPENT 30 YEARS IN FRANCE AND I DIDN'T WANNA COME BACK WHEN BEN DIDN'T WANNA COME BACK IN 1979 BECAUSE IT WAS A WONDERFUL LIFE. AND WE ALWAYS FELT VERY GUILTY ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO HADN'T GOTTEN AWAY, WHO LIVED THROUGH THE BLACKLIST IN AMERICA WITH THEIR CHILDREN AND THAT WAS VERY HARD. NOW, ONE THING THAT WAS VERY HARD FOR US OR AT LEAST, YEAH, FOR MANY OF US WAS THAT OUR PASSPORTS GOT TAKEN AWAY. MINE GOT TAKEN AWAY IN JULY, 1951 SO THAT I COULDN'T GO TO ITALY WHERE THE FILM THAT I HAD WRITTEN, I HAD FINALLY, ON MY OWN, WITHOUT A MALE COLLABORATOR OR ANYBODY ELSE, I HAD FINALLY WRITTEN A SCREENPLAY THAT WAS SHOT IN CINECITTA IN ROME AND I COULDN'T GO THERE BECAUSE IN JULY, 1951, MY PASSPORT WAS TAKEN BY THE AMERICAN EMBASSY IN PARIS. AND I DIDN'T GET IT BACK UNTIL JULY, 1958 AND I JUST WANNA GIVE YOU THE FEELING OF GETTING IT BACK. WE HAD A LAWYER, LEONARD BOUDIN WHO WAS TRYING TO-- ALL THOSE YEARS WAS TRYING TO GET BACK THE PASSPORTS. I NEED TO SAY ONE THING ABOUT BEN. HE WAS CANADIAN, BORN IN TORONTO, WAS A NATURALIZED AMERICAN AND WHEN THEY TOOK MY PASSPORT, THEY TOOK AWAY HIS CITIZENSHIP, HIS AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP. HE HAD NO CITIZENSHIP. YOU DON'T AUTOMATICALLY BECOME CANADIAN. SO BECAUSE HE HAD NO CITIZENSHIP, STATELESS, HE WAS GIVEN BY THE FRENCH THIS WONDERFUL ACCORDION, THIS BEAUTIFUL BLUE ACCORDION ON WHICH YOU GOT VISAS AND HE COULD TRAVEL EVERYWHERE. FOR 7 YEARS, HE WENT EVERYWHERE AND I COULDN'T GO ANYWHERE [LAUGHTER] WHICH WAS PRETTY MUCH THE WAY THINGS WORKED WITH THE MOVIES TOO. SO, WHAT I WANTED TO SAY WAS THE GIVING BACK OF MY PASSPORT BECAUSE IT'S SO MEMORABLE. LAST WEEK, I DIDN'T REMEMBER THIS AT UCSB BUT IT'S SO BEAUTIFUL. OUR LAWYER, LEONARD BOUDIN SENT A CABLE, "NORMA, GO INTO THE US CONSULATE IN NICE AND JUST SAY, "I WANT MY PASSPORT." YOU WILL GET IT." SO I WALKED IN. OF COURSE, YOU MUST KNOW THAT I SHIVERED WHEN I WALKED IN BECAUSE WHAT ELSE COULD THEY DO TO ME? I MEAN THEY'VE TAKEN MY PASSPORT. ARE THEY GONNA DO SOMETHING ELSE TERRIBLE? WELL, I WAS GREETED BY THE YOUNG, BEAUTIFUL, BLACK CONSUL AND SHE HANDED ME MY PASSPORT AND SHE KISSED AND HUGGED ME AND SHE SAID, "I'M SO GLAD I AM ABLE TO DO THIS." SHE SAID, "I HAVE BEEN IN THE FAR EAST FOR THE LAST 7 YEARS. I ASKED FOR THE FAR EAST BECAUSE I COULDN'T BEAR WHAT THEY WERE DOING TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU." AND SHE WAS SO HAPPY AND I WAS SO HAPPY AND WE BOTH CRIED. ANYWAY, ALRIGHT. WELL, WE'VE GOTTEN US UP TO-- THINK YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT BEN HAD A TREMENDOUSLY SUCCESSFUL CAREER IN EUROPE. HE WROTE 5 FILMS FOR JOE LOSEY. HE WROTE EL CID, HE WROTE THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE, TONS AND TONS OF PICTURES. I WON'T LIST THEM. BUT HE WAS SO UPSET ALWAYS AND SO DEPRESSED BY THE FACT THAT HE HAD BEEN BLACKLISTED, THAT AMERICA DIDN'T WANT HIM. AND HE REALLY-- I'M NOT SAYING HE GOT SICK OR THAT HE GOT HEART TROUBLE BECAUSE OF THAT. IT CERTAINLY HASTENED HIS-- WELL, HE HAD A MASSIVE HEART ATTACK ON THE 4TH OF JULY, IF THAT DOESN'T TELL YOU SOMETHING. I MEAN IT WAS A STATEMENT. ANYWAY, BEN-- [ LAUGHTER ] >> BEN AND JOE LOSEY, THE DIRECTOR, BOTH WERE VERY, VERY DEPRESSED GUYS. NOW, THEY WEREN'T JOLLY GUYS BEFORE. I'M NOT SAYING THAT THEY CHANGED UTTERLY. BUT THEY BECAME SO DEPRESSED DURING THOSE EXILED YEARS AND THEY WERE EXILED YEARS. THEY FELT REJECTED AND WHILE WE HAD A GREAT LIFE AND WE REALLY DID HAVE A GREAT LIFE, WE BOUGHT A HOUSE IN PARIS, WE BOUGHT THE HOUSE AND YOU READ THE BOOK AND YOU'LL EVEN SEE PICTURES OF THE HOUSE NEXT TO PICASSO'S HOUSE. NOW, LET ME THINK. I THINK IT'S A TIME WHERE YOU'RE GONNA WANNA ASK QUESTIONS. YES? >> WE COULD START THAT NOW. >> WELL, MAYBE IF YOU, YOU KNOW, IT'LL-- MAYBE IT'LL BRING SOME STUFF OUT. I DON'T KNOW. [ LAUGHTER ] [ INAUDIBLE AUDIENCE REMARK ] >> WHOOPS! OH DEAR. >> I'VE BEEN GOING UP AND DOWN THAT ALL AFTERNOON. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK? MATT, YOU THINK THAT IT'S-- WE SHOULD JUST KIND OF-- >> YOU KNOW, I WOULD LOVE TO ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS. >> YEAH, WHY DON'T-- [ SIMULTANEOUS TALKING ] >> AND THEN I'M SURE PEOPLE OUT HERE [SIMULTANEOUS TALKING]. >> WELL, I'M SURE YOU GUYS HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS. [ INAUDIBLE AUDIENCE REMARK ] >> YEAH, OKAY. ALRIGHT. >> LET'S TURN THIS ONE ON. >> ALRIGHT. >> YOU KEEP THAT RIGHT UP UNDER YOUR CHIN. >> OKAY. >> AND LET ME TELL YOU, LET ME GRAB A BOOK FIRST. HERE IT IS AND IF WE'RE LUCKY, THE BOOKSTORE HAS ARRIVED AND THESE ARE SITTING OUTSIDE ON THE TABLE AND WHAT'S THE [INAUDIBLE] WHAT YOU'RE HEARING TONIGHT FROM NORMA DOESN'T EVEN SCRATCH THE SURFACE. YOU CANNOT BELIEVE [NOISE] HOW MANY STORIES ARE TOLD IN THIS BOOK. MAYBE I'LL PUT THIS ASIDE. YOU CANNOT BELIEVE HOW MANY STORIES SHE HAS AND THE CAST OF CHARACTERS THAT-- I MEAN THIS BOOK MOVES LIKE A CAR CHASE AND IT IS PRETTY SET DOWN AS WELL. [ SIMULTANEOUS TALKING ] >> WELL, LET ME JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T MENTION THAT WHEN I TALKED ABOUT BEN'S SUCCESS, SOPHIA LAUREN HAD SEEN CHRIST IN CONCRETE. IT WAS A PICTURE THAT WAS VERY POPULAR IN ITALY AND SHE LOVED IT AND SHE LOVED HIS SCREENPLAY AND SOON, WHEN SHE DECIDED THAT SHE DIDN'T WANNA DO EL CID, THAT IT WAS JUST TOO AWFUL A SCREENPLAY AND SHE WOULDN'T DO IT, SHE MADE IT CLEAR THAT IF BEN CAME AND REWROTE, SHE WOULD DO IT. WELL, HE GOT TO ROME WITH A DIRECTOR AND HE HAD READ THE SCREENPLAY THAT SHE WOULDN'T DO IN THE PLAY. AND WHEN HE ARRIVED, HE SAID, "I CAN'T REWRITE THAT." SHE SAID, "WELL, OKAY. WHAT CAN YOU DO? MY LIFE IS IN YOUR HANDS BECAUSE I HAVE TO START SHOOTING MONDAY AND I DON'T-- I WON'T SHOOT THAT SCREENPLAY." AND HE SAID, "I'D HAVE TO START COMPLETELY FRESH." AND BEN WROTE A NEW SCREENPLAY FROM SCRATCH AND HE BEGAN. THEY FLEW AND THAT WAS ON A FRIDAY THAT HE MET WITH SOPHIA. SATURDAY, THEY FLEW TO MADRID AND SATURDAY HE PHONED ME TO LONDON AND SAID, "WHAT'LL I DO? WE HAVE TO BE READY FOR MONDAY. THERE HAVE TO BE PAGES." AND THERE WAS A BOY WHO SAT OUTSIDE THEIR SUITE WAITING TO TAKE A FEW-- EVERY TIME YOU WROTE A FEW PAGES, HE'D GO ON HIS VESPA AND DRIVE IT TO THE STUDIO AND THEN THEY WOULD SHOOT A FEW PAGES AND THEN HE WOULD WRITE A FEW MORE PAGES. [ LAUGHTER ] >> SO THAT'S THE WAY EL CID WAS DONE [LAUGHTER] AND THAT WAS WHEN WE MET SOPHIA AND SHE BECAME A LIFE-LONG FRIEND AND SHE'S BEEN SIMPLY WONDERFUL. >> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT. >> YEAH. >> BECAUSE SHE IS STILL A DEAR FRIEND. >> YES, SHE IS STILL A DEAR FRIEND. >> TALK ABOUT WHAT SOPHIA DID IN I THINK 1999 WHEN SHE CAME TO YOU-- >> YES. >> -- AFTER A BIT OF TRIUMPH, I THINK. >> AH. WELL, I THINK YOU'RE REFERRING TO THE KAZAN THING. >> YES. >> I WAS NOTIF-- I DON'T KNOW WHERE I FOUND OUT THAT THE ACADEMY WAS PLANNING TO GIVE KAZAN AN OSCAR FOR LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT. >> I WENT STRAIGHT TO THE ACADEMY AND SAID, "I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD DO THIS," AND THEY SAID, "IT'S TOO LATE. EVERYBODY KNOWS WE'RE DOING IT AND IT CAN'T BE STOPPED." AND I SAID, "WELL, WE'RE GONNA TRY TO STOP YOU." I DON'T KNOW WHAT I-- I HAD NEVER BEEN ORGANIZATIONAL. I MEAN WHEN I WAS YOUNG, I NEVER RAISED MONEY FOR ANYTHING. I NEVER ORGANIZED ANYTHING BUT BY GOLLY, THE IDEA OF THE ACADEMY GIVING AN OSCAR FOR LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT TO KAZAN, JUST-- I RESPECTED HIM AS A CREATOR. I WOULD HAVE GIVEN HIM-- HE HAD TWO OSCARS. I WOULD HAVE GIVEN HIM TWO MORE OSCARS FOR HIS WORK BUT IT SEEMED TO ME THAT GIVING HIM AN OSCAR FOR HIS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT, WHAT WAS IT? THE DESTRUCTION OF 23 LIVES OF THE ACTORS, OF THE GROUP THEATER HE RENAMED WHOM I KNEW, I DIDN'T KNOW-- I HAD SEEN THEM ON THE STAGE WHEN I WAS IN MY TEENS BUT I HAD BECOME FRIENDLY WITH THEM WHEN THEY WERE AT THE ACTORS LAB WAY LATER AND TO THINK THAT THIS MAN WAS READY TO DESTROY THESE PEOPLE, IT WAS JUST TOO HORRIBLE. >> YOU PICKETED WITH YOUR GRANDSON. >> I PICKETED WITH MY GRANDSON, MATTHEW. YES, WITH DANIEL'S SON. I PICKETED. >> YEAH, WE SHOULD MENTION BY THE WAY, ONE OF NORMA'S SEVEN CHILDREN, DANIEL IS SITTING IN THE BACK RIGHT BACK THERE RIGHT NOW. SO, SOMEONE ELSE COULD TO TALK TO HIM A LITTLE BIT LATER. THANK YOU FOR COMING OUT. BEFORE WE GET TO QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE, THERE'S SO MANY-- I'VE GOT PAGES OF QUESTIONS. >> OH, I WANT TO TELL YOU, DO. >> YEAH. >> I'M GONNA INTERRUPT YOU TO SAY WHAT WE DID. I RAISED THE MONEY, ME WHO DOESN'T LIKE TO RAISE MONEY. I RAISED ENOUGH MONEY TO TAKE OUT A FULL-PAGE AD IN VARIETY AND A FULL-PAGE AD IN THE REPORTER SAYING THAT KAZAN WAS A FINK AND IN EVERY-- [ LAUGHTER ] >> -- IN EVERY LIMO THAT WENT TO THE OSCARS, ON THE FLOOR OF THE LIMO THERE WAS THE VARIETY AND THE REPORTER AND IT ASKED PEOPLE NOT TO APPLAUD AND THEY DIDN'T AND WHAT MATT WANTS TO TELL YOU IS THAT SOPHIA, BEFORE SHE WENT TO THE OSCARS THAT NIGHT, HAD TURNED ON HER TV, HAD MADE IT TO RECORD. AND SO, SHE SAW WHAT WENT ON AT THE ACADEMY. SHE SAW THAT 3 QUARTERS, AT LEAST 3 QUARTERS OF THE PEOPLE SAT, DID NOT APPLAUD, THAT ONLY ONE CORNER, LESS THAN A FOURTH BUT CHARLTON HESTON DID GET UP AND DID APPLAUD. AND THEN SHE WENT-- WHEN SHE WENT HOME, SHE SAW THAT ON NBC IT LOOKED AS IF MANY MORE HAD GOTTEN UP AND APPLAUDED AND THE APPLAUSE WAS TURNED UP AND EVERYTHING. IT JUST-- THE TELEVISION WAS REALLY A LIE AND SHE SAID SO. SHE WAS WILLING TO SAY SO AND SHE DID. >> AND SHE HUGGED YOU AND CONGRATULATED. >> YES, SHE DID, YES. >> ONE OTHER QUICK STORY. >> YEAH. >> [SIMULTANEOUS TALKING] WAY BACK TO BEFORE YOU LEFT THE COUNTRY-- >> YES. >> WHEN YOU AND BEN WERE RUNNING VERY SCARED AND GOING ALL OUT EVEN TRADING HOMES [INAUDIBLE]. >> OH, BERNIE VORHAUS. >> SO THAT THE-- WHAT YOU CALLED THE SLIM JEANS-- [ SIMULTANEOUS TALKING ] >> YES, THAT'S RIGHT. >> DID THEY CATCH UP WITH YOU, THE FBI? >> NO, THEY WEREN'T AFTER US. THEY WERE AFTER BERNARD VORHAUS, THE DIRECTOR WHO DIRECTED MY PICTURE FINISHING SCHOOL AT [INAUDIBLE] UTAH. THEY ALL-- THAT WAS ALREADY-- THEY HAD A SUBPOENA FOR HIM AND HE PARTICULARLY WANTED TO-- I MEAN WE WOULD JUST-- WE WANTED TO CHANGE HOUSES BECAUSE THEY HAD A POOL. [ LAUGHTER ] >> BUT YOU WERE IN JEOPARDY BECAUSE YOU GOT A CALL FROM AN ATTORNEY-- >> YES, THAT'S TRUE. [ SIMULTANEOUS TALKING ] >> -- WHO WAS FRONTING FOR A CERTAIN CONGRESSMAN-- >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> -- WHO MADE SUCH A GENEROUS OFFER OF THE SYSTEMS. >> THE CONGRESSMAN WAS NIXON. >> RICHARD NIXON? >> RICHARD NIXON. [ INAUDIBLE REMARK ] >> AND THEY CALLED IN BEN AND SAID IF YOU PUT UP SOME ODD NUMBER LIKE 11,000 DOLLARS, 10,000 DOLLARS FOR THE CONGRESSMAN AND A THOUSAND FOR THE LAWYER WHO WOULD DO IT, THEN BEN WOULD NEVER HAVE ANY PROBLEM. >> AND YOU DIDN'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT? >> AND WE DID NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. I THINK IT WAS GOOD THAT WE LEFT FOR ENGLAND. >> ONE MORE AND THEN WILL PROCEED [INAUDIBLE] AND I DON'T KNOW WHICH OF THOSE THAT IS. [ INAUDIBLE REMARK ] >> IS THAT THIS? >> MAYBE THEY COULD TURN IT DOWN A LITTLE BIT? >> IS THAT THIS? [ SIMULTANEOUS TALKING ] >> I THINK IT'S THIS ONE ACTUALLY. >> OH. >> DON'T WORRY. THE ONE THING THAT BEN NEVER FORGAVE YOU FOR, AND THERE WERE LOTS OF THINGS HE DID FORGIVE YOU FOR. >> YES, I KNOW THE THING HE DIDN'T FORGIVE ME FOR EVEN ON HIS DYING BED. >> YEAH. >> PICASSO WANTED TO USE-- WE HAD ON OUR PROPERTY A STUDIO. THE PEOPLE WHO OWNED OUR HOUSE BEFORE US, IT WAS AN ENGLISH SCULPTURE AND THERE WAS THIS BIG STUDIO, INDEPENDENT FROM THE OLD FARM HOUSE AND OUR MUTUAL FRIEND, PICASSO'S AND OURS, MARCEL [PHONETIC] HAD TOLD PICASSO ABOUT IT AND SAID THAT'D BE A WONDERFUL PLACE FOR YOU TO CUT YOUR LITHOS AND HE DIDN'T LIKE GOING ALL THE WAY TO VALERIE'S [PHONETIC] TO CUT HIS LITHOS. SO, HE CALLED UP BEN AND HE SAID, "CAN I USE YOUR STUDIO?" AND I SAID, "ABSOLUTELY NOT," BECAUSE WE HAD A LOT OF LITTLE CHILDREN RUNNING AROUND AND I KNEW THAT IF PICASSO WAS AT OUR PLACE ALL THE TIME, THAT TOURISTS WOULD COME. THEY'D COME IN AND OUT OF THE DRIVEWAY. THEY'D DRIVE IN. WE WOULD NOT-- WE HAD MOVED DOWN TO [INAUDIBLE] TO HAVE PEACE AND QUITE AND SORT OF A COUNTRY LIFE. BUT MOST OF US, WE DID KNOW EACH OTHER. THERE WAS-- WHAT'S-YOUR-NAME WROTE A BOOK ABOUT IT. IT'S A VERY GOOD BOOK AND I CAN'T THINK OF IT FOR THE MOMENT, ABOUT THE GERMAN-- THEY ENTERTAINED A LOT. THERE WAS A CONNECTION. WE WERE JUST FRIENDS BUT I'LL THINK ABOUT THAT AND GIVE YOU THE NAME OF THE BOOK WHEN I CAN. YES? LATER. >> OTHER QUESTIONS? LET ME ASK ANOTHER ONE. ANOTHER FRIEND, INGRID BERGMAN. >> YES. >> THERE WERE BLACKLISTS AND THERE WERE BLACKLISTS, AND SHE TOLD YOU THAT SHE WAS KIND OF ON A DIFFERENT KIND OF BLACKLIST. >> SHE WAS ON A DIFFERENT KIND OF BLACKLIST BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T-- AMERICANS DIDN'T LIKE HER MORALS BECAUSE SHE HAD GONE OFF WITH-- >> ROSSELLINI. >> ROSSELLINI AND LEFT HER HUSBAND AND IT WAS-- AMERICANS JUST DID NOT ACCEPT THAT. YES IT WAS. SHE CERTAINLY WAS BLACKLISTED IN AMERICA FOR A LONG TIME. >> BUT IN A SENSE-- >> IN-- FOR THAT. >> YEAH. IN A SENSE THOUGH, YOU WENT THROUGH A PERIOD WHERE EVEN BEYOND WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DID WITH YOU AS A BLACKLISTED WRITER, YOU DIDN'T WRITE FOR A LONG TIME. >> OH YEAH, HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BLACK, I BLACKLISTED MYSELF. >> EXACTLY. HAVE YOU FIGURED OUT WHY? >> WELL, IT'S FUNNY. ON THE WAY HERE TONIGHT, WE WERE THINKING ABOUT IT. I DIDN'T-- THERE WERE PERIODS IN MY LIFE WHERE I WORKED VERY, VERY, VERY HARD AND DEFIED EVERYTHING AND IT DIDN'T MATTER THAT I EVEN HAD A LOT OF LITTLE CHILDREN AND THAT WAS LIKE THE FIRST 5 YEARS IN FRANCE WHEN I WAS WRITING TELEVISION LIKE MAD AND WROTE A FILM AND WORKED AND WAS -- IT WAS -- I DON'T KNOW HOW I DID ALL THAT. AND THEN SOMEHOW IN THE PERIOD AFTER WE WENT DOWN TO [INAUDIBLE], I BECAME LIKE THE SHUTTLE AND THE LADY OF THE CASTLE. I JUST STOPPED WRITING. I DID HAVE MAYBE MORE CHILDREN THAN -- BUT IT WASN'T THE CHILDREN, IT CAN'T BE BLAMED ON THE CHILDREN. IT WAS ALSO THAT OUR HOUSE, 10 MINUTES FROM THE CANNES FILM FESTIVAL BECAME THE CENTER OF INTERNATIONAL FILM FOLK AND I SEEM TO BE ALWAYS ENTERTAINING -- BUT THAT DOESN'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING EITHER BECAUSE I -- I ALSO GREW GOLDEN BANTAM CORN AND THERE'S A PERIOD OF ABOUT 10 YEARS I FIND WITH A LOT OF -- WHAT WE DISCUSSED TONIGHT ON THE WAY HERE WAS MAYBE NOWADAYS MEN HAVE THAT KIND OF A PERIOD THAT THEY -- WHERE THEY DON'T NEED TO WORK SO HARD AT SOMETHING WHERE THEY'RE NOT DRIVEN AND THEY TAKE TIME OFF TO LIVE A LITTLE. MAYBE THAT'S MORE POSSIBLE. IT USED TO BE THAT JUST YOU WOULD FIND WOMEN WRITERS AND WOMEN PAINTERS WHO DID THAT FROM TIME TO TIME. YOU'D FIND SUDDENLY A BARREN PERIOD OF THEIR LIVES WHERE THEY SEEM TO BE VERY MUCH INTO LIFE AND NOT -- AND NOT WRITING, YOU'RE NOT ACCOMPLISHING A LOT. >> FORTUNATELY, THAT BARREN PERIOD CAME TO AN END. SAY SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR SECOND BOOK WHICH IS ABOUT TO COME OUT. >> YEAH, BUT THE SECOND -- >> SECOND NON-FICTION BOOK I SHOULD SAY. >> IT CAME OUT. >> IT IS OUT ALREADY? >> IT'S OUT. >> OKAY. >> IT'S OUT AND I'M WRITING THE SCREENPLAY OF IT. IT'S CALLED THE END OF -- IT'S CALLED THE "END OF ROMANCE" AND IT'S ABOUT A 12-DAY TRIP I TOOK WITH A COUSIN, HENRY, THE SCREENWRITER THAT I SORT OF ADORED, AND IT'S ABOUT A TRIP TO CREMONA IN 1973, CREMONA AND VENICE. >> AND IT'S -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH -- WELL, IT WAS VERY EXCITING BECAUSE WHEN I SAW HENRY, MY COUSIN WHOM I LOVE SO MUCH IN NEW YORK, HE WAS READY TO DIE. HE HAD GOTTEN WHAT HE CALLED HIS FIRST REJECTION SLIP IN 50 YEARS. IT WAS ABOUT 70, AND IT WASN'T A REJECTION SLIP. IT WAS THAT THIS PUBLISHER DIDN'T WANNA PUBLISH HIS LATEST NOVEL, HISTORICAL NOVEL. AND HENRY WAS READY TO DIE. HENRY WAS READY TO CURL UP AND DIE. HE DIDN'T GET OUT OF HIS BATHROBE. WHEN I SAW HIM HE LOOKED AS THOUGH IT WAS THE END. AND I TRIED TO THINK OF THINGS TO LIVEN HIM UP. I TALKED ABOUT MY CHILDREN FIRST THEN I REMEMBERED A STORY HE HAD WANTED TO DO ABOUT A GREAT VIOLIN MAKER, GUARNERI DEL GESU, REALLY AS GOOD A VIOLIN MAKER AS STRADIVARI IS. AND I REMINDED HIM OF IT AND HE SUDDENLY SAID, "OH, YES, I DID WANNA DO IT, AND I DID WANNA DO THAT, OH, I DO WANNA DO THAT." COLOR BEGAN TO COME BACK INTO HIS CHEEKS AND HE SAID, "BUT I HAVE TO GO TO CREMONA," AND I SAID, "WELL IS THAT BAD? CREMONA, ITALY?" AND HE SAID, "YEAH, BUT -- " AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS THIS. I INVITED HIM TO COME TO EUROPE TO STAY WITH US IN [INAUDIBLE] AND I THOUGHT HE WOULD GO ON TO CREMONA AND RESEARCH HIS NOVEL. WHAT HE DID WAS HE TRICKED ME. HE ARRIVED IN GENOA ON THE LEONARDO DA VINCI AND I HAD COME FROM [INAUDIBLE] TO PICK HIM UP AND BRING HIM BACK TO [INAUDIBLE] INTO OUR HOUSE, AND HE MANAGED TO MAKE THE DAY GO BY SO THAT IT WAS DARK -- TOO DARK TO TAKE THE CURVES IN THE NIGHT AND DRIVE BACK HOME AND HE FOUND OUT THAT WE WERE VERY NEAR [INAUDIBLE], NOT HE FOUND OUT -- HE KNEW ALREADY, HE HAD PLANNED ALL THIS, AND HE REALLY HIJACKED ME AND MY FRIEND FROM COLLEGE AND WE WENT TO CREMONA AND WHILE RESEARCHING HIS BOOK, I STUMBLED ON THE MYSTERY OF THE ORIGINS OF THE VIOLIN, A VERY EXCITING THING, WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 1500 WHICH THE 1973 NEO-FASCIST, ITALIAN FASCIST DID NOT WANT KNOWN. IT WAS -- LET'S PUT THIS WAY, ONE MORE -- THEY DID NOT WANT ONE MORE SCIENTIFIC OR CULTURAL THING TO BE JEWISH. AND I WON'T TELL YOU WHAT HAPPENED IN 1500. YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO READ MY BOOK. >> BECAUSE THIS -- >> THE SECOND BOOK. >> -- THIS WAS THE SECRET OF -- THAT SCIENTISTS WERE STILL PUZZLING OVER. >> YEAH, BUT IT'S -- >> HOW THESE INCREDIBLE INSTRUMENTS WERE PRODUCED IN THAT TIME. >> I HAD TO GO BACK IN 1990 BECAUSE WHEN I WAS THERE IN 1973, AS FAST AS I WOULD FIND OUT SOMETHING, THE NEO-FASCIST STILL HAD -- THEY HAD A NETWORK. THEY WENT INTO THE ARCHIVES. THEY PULLED OUT THE MATERIAL THAT I NEEDED AND I COULDN'T DO IT THEN AND THEY NEARLY RUN ME OFF A MOUNTAIN ROAD. MAYBE TO KILL ME, MAYBE JUST TO PUT THE FEAR OF THE LORD IN ME, BUT IT WAS REAL. ANYWAY, THAT'S A VERY EXCITING BOOK, THE SECOND ONE. >> AND THAT'S "THE END OF ROMANCE." >> "THE END OF ROMANCE." >> RIGHT. >> IT'S REALLY THE END OF THE ROMANTICIZING BECAUSE A 50-YEAR-OLD ADOLESCENT BEGAN -- JUST BEGAN TO LOOK AT REALITY AND STOP ROMANTICIZING ABOUT EVERYTHING, POLITICS, LOVE, SEX, LIFE. >> WE NEED TO LET YOU GET ON TO A MOVIE. DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTION? YES. >> YES. >> ACTUALLY, 2 QUESTIONS. ONE -- ALRIGHT, MAYBE YOU CAN TALK TO THE PEOPLE HERE WHY YOU LEFT THE COMMUNIST PARTY? >> YES. >> THE SECOND QUESTION HAS TO DO WITH YOUR CONVERSATION A MOMENT AGO, ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS QUOTE, "THERE AND HERE AND 7 CHILDREN?" >> FIRST [INAUDIBLE]. >> LET ME TELL YOU -- LET ME TAKE THE COMMUNIST PARTY 'CAUSE I THINK THAT'S FUN. I LEFT BECAUSE I LEFT AMERICA. I WAS NO LONGER AN AMERICAN COMMUNIST, NEVER BECAME ONE AFTER THAT. STILL BELIEVED -- OH, I'LL GIVE YOU A -- ACTUALLY WHEN THE KRUSCHOV REPORT CAME OUT, YOU WOULD THINK THAT I WOULD HAVE BEEN SO DISABUSED OF, YOU KNOW -- >> AND THIS IS THE KRUSCHOV REPORT ON -- >> 1950 -- >> -- THE TRUE EVIL OF THE SOVIET UNION? >> YEAH, 1958, AND SO HOW DID I TAKE IT? I SAID, "ISN'T IT WONDERFUL THAT A COUNTRY CAN ADMIT ITS TERRIBLE ERRORS AND THE FRIGHTFUL THINGS IT'S DONE? NOW THEY'LL TURN OVER A NEW LEAF AND THEY'LL BE DECENT." >> BUT THEN CAME 1968. >> BUT THEN CAME 1968, AND I AM ASHAMED THAT NOT UNTIL 1968 DID I REALLY, AND WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT BEING -- I WASN'T A COMMUNIST ANYMORE. I WASN'T POLITICAL. I WASN'T ANYTHING. BUT THEN I REALLY SAW THROUGH IT RIGHT BEFORE MY EYES. MAY '68 IN PARIS, I SAW THAT THE COMMUNIST PARTY, BECAUSE IT WAS NOT AT THE HEAD OF THE REVOLT OF THE STUDENTS AND WORKERS REALLY BETRAYED THEM, SENT THE RENAULT WORKERS BACK TO THE PLANT, TO THE CAR, YOU KNOW AUTOMOBILE PLANTS TO WORK, PUT AN END TO THESE STRIKES BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T AT THE HEAD OF IT. I SAW WHAT THEY WERE LIKE AND I WAS DISABUSED OF THE WHOLE THING. >> AND WE SHOULD NOTE THAT 2 OF DANIEL'S BROTHERS WERE ON THE BARRICADES AND [INAUDIBLE]. >> YES, AND SISTER. >> AND SISTER, OKAY. YOUR OTHER QUESTION WAS WHAT ABOUT HOW SHE CAME OUT OF THAT BARREN? >> YOU ASKED HER THE QUESTION ABOUT THIS BARREN PERIOD OF HER LIFE. >> OH, THAT. >> I WAS WONDERING, YOU'RE A WOMAN WITH 7 CHILDREN, IS THAT REALLY [INAUDIBLE], I MEAN IS THIS -- IS THERE A PARALLEL ACCOUNT? >> WELL, I MANAGED WITH CHILDREN 'CAUSE I DID -- I THINK IF WE HADN'T BEEN IN FRANCE WITH WONDERFUL PEOPLE TO HELP WITH THE CHILDREN, I COULD NOT HAVE DONE WHAT I DID. BUT I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY -- YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT THE BARREN PERIOD AND I DON'T KNOW PSYCHOLOGICALLY OR WHY IT HAPPENED. >> NO, PSYCHOLOGICALLY, DIDN'T THEN PLAY A ROLE IN THIS? 'CAUSE HE -- I GOT THE FEELING HE DID REALLY SO MUCH WANT YOU WRITING ON YOUR OWN. >> WELL, WE'RE NOT GONNA BLAME HIM FOR THE BARREN PERIOD. NOT TONIGHT, WE AREN'T. >> OH, IT WAS YOUR CHOICE. IT WAS YOUR CHOICE. >> THERE WERE PLENTY OF THINGS BEN DID THAT DIDN'T -- FOR EXAMPLE, HE DID NOT STAND UP FOR ME IN THE VERY BEGINNING WHEN I REALLY WROTE "NEVER SAY GOODBYE" AND WARNER BROTHERS IMMEDIATELY WANTED TO BUY IT 'CAUSE ERROL FLYNN WANTED TO DO A COMEDY. AND OUR AGENT GOT A GOOD CHUNK OF MONEY FOR IT FOR THOSE DAYS AND WE WERE SUPPOSE TO -- THE TWO OF US, BEN AND ME WERE SUPPOSED TO GO WRITE THE SCREENPLAY. IT WAS AN ORIGINAL STORY YOU SEE, BUT VERY, VERY FULL, 120 PAGES AS LONG AS THE SCREENPLAY. AND WHOEVER IT WAS AT WARNER BROTHERS SAID, "WE WANT BEN, BUT WE NEVER HEARD OF HER." AND BEN DIDN'T STAND UP FOR ME. I GUESS THE AGENT DIDN'T. AND I DIDN'T STAND UP FOR MYSELF. BUT A LOT OF -- >> BUT KEEP IN MIND THE TIMES AS WELL. >> YES, I'M KEEPING IN MIND THE TIMES. >> YEAH. I DON'T MEAN THE TIME HERE. I MEAN THOSE TIMES. >> NO, THE TIMES -- NO, I'M KEEPING IN MIND THE TIMES, BUT IT'S AMAZING HOW MUCH OF THAT STUFF STILL HAPPENS. I KNOW WE'VE MADE -- THERE WAS A LITTLE ITEM IN THE LOS ANGELES TIMES YESTERDAY THAT SAID THAT THE PERCENTAGE OF WOMEN MAKING, WRITING, AND DIRECTING HOLLYWOOD FILMS IS SOMETHING LIKE 21 PERCENT WHICH NO -- EVEN THOUGH WE'VE COME A LONG WAY, WE HAVEN'T COME SUCH A LONG WAY, RIGHT? >> CAN I GET YOU TO CLOSE? MAYBE EITHER YOU CAN READ IT OR I WILL IF YOU LIKE. >> I DON'T HAVE MY READING GLASSES. YOU CAN READ. >> OH, ALRIGHT. IT'S A QUOTE AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK. >> YES. >> FROM SALKA VIERTEL. >> I HAVE -- WELL, MY POCKETBOOK IS THERE AND MY READING GLASSES ARE IN IT, IF SOMEONE HANDS ME. CAN YOU TAKE -- >> YOU WANNA GRAB THEM? SURE, OF COURSE I'LL HOLD THESE. >> YEAH, OKAY. >> IN THE MEANTIME I'LL REMIND YOU OF OUR [INAUDIBLE] -- >> YOU'VE SEEN MY POCKETBOOK? >> -- RIGHT OUTSIDE THE DOOR [INAUDIBLE], ARE THEY -- DO THEY HAVE THE BOOKS OUT THERE? OKAY. >> POCKETBOOK. >> RIGHT OUTSIDE. >> OH, HERE IT IS. >> THERE IT IS? >> HERE IT IS. >> END OF THE BLACKLIST -- >> HERE IT IS. >> THE RED AND BLACKLIST BY NORMA BARZMAN. ON NATION BOOKS, I CAN TELL YOU IT'S AVAILABLE FROM AMAZON AND LOTS OF OTHER ONLINE PROVIDERS AND OF COURSE RIGHT OUTSIDE THERE TODAY. NORMA, ARE YOU GONNA BE ABLE TO STICK AROUND FOR A LITTLE BIT -- >> OF COURSE. >> -- AND SIGN A FEW OF THESE [INAUDIBLE]. >> OF COURSE, PLEASURE, ABSOLUTELY. >> OKAY. HERE IS THE QUOTE THAT IS ON THE SECOND TO THE LAST OF AN ULTIMATE PAGE OF THE BOOK AND ON TO THE LAST PAGE WHICH BY THE WAY HAS AN EXTENSIVE READER'S GUIDE FOLLOWING IT. THERE ARE LOTS OF FOOTNOTES IN THIS BOOK, BUT IT STARTS RIGHT DOWN THERE AT THE BOTTOM. >> BEN ONCE HAD CONFIDED TO LARRY CEPLAIR. LIVING THROUGH THE BLACKLIST, AN EXILE WAS LIKE HAVING GONE TO WAR. IT WAS A RICH AND REWARDING EXPERIENCE BUT I WOULDN'T WANNA GO THROUGH IT AGAIN. THAT IN TURN RECALLED TO ME THE WORDS OF SALKA VIERTEL. THAT'S WHO WROTE THE BOOK THAT YOU ASKED ABOUT. NO MATTER HOW HARD IT IS FOR A MAN TO FACE EXILE. IT IS ALWAYS DOUBLY HARD FOR THE WOMAN WHO MUST HOLD IT ALL UP, KEEP THE SHIP FROM SINKING, THE WIFE, MOTHER WHO MUST ALSO BUOY UP THE SPIRITS OF A NEUROTIC ARTIST HUSBAND. SALKA COULD HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT ME OR ANY OF THE WIVES OF THE BLACKLIST. DESPITE BEN'S BRILLIANT FILM CAREER IN EUROPE, HE WAS BITTER. I COULD HAVE BEEN BITTER. MY WRITING CAREER WAS NIPPED IN THE BUD. BUT SO MUCH CAME TO ME. PERHAPS IT'S HARDER FOR A WOMAN TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL CAREER BUT EASIER FOR HER TO HAVE A FULFILLING LIFE. PERHAPS THE IMPORTANT SKILLS ARE THE ABILITY TO ADAPT AND NOT TO BE TOO FIXED ON A SINGLE GOAL. RIGHT NOW FOR EXAMPLE, I HAVE MORE THAN ONE GOAL. AT VIENNA'S JEWISH MUSEUM, I CAME ACROSS A MARCUZZI [PHONETIC] QUOTE URGING US TO REMEMBER THE EFFECTS OF THE HOLOCAUST ON OUR CULTURE. ALL AT ONCE, I REALIZED IT COULD APPLY TO THE BLACKLIST. WE NEED TO INSCRIBE ON OUR MEMORY TABLETS THE HUMANIST CONTRIBUTIONS MADE TO OUR CULTURE BY THE PROGRESSIVES OF THE '30S AND '40S AND BE MINDFUL OF HOW THE BLACKLIST AND THE FEAR IT ENGENDERED, MUTILATED, AND DEGRADED OUR CULTURE FOR GENERATIONS. AT THE RETROSPECTIVE IN VIENNA, I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE A FILM OF THE EARLY 1940'S "SMASH-UP" WRITTEN BY "RIGID" JOHN HOWARD LAWSON, HEAD OF THE HOLLYWOOD SECTION OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY. I FELT IT COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY A YOUNG FEMINIST WOMAN WRITER TODAY. IN 1999 ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER BLACKLISTED WRITERS, I RECEIVED A LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD FROM UCLA'S GRADUATING SCREENWRITING CLASS. THEY EXPLAINED, "IN THE LIGHT OF THE ACADEMY'S HONORING KAZAN, THE STUDENTS FELT THAT WHETHER WE, THE BLACKLISTED, WROTE B FILMS OR OSCAR WINNING ONES, WE DESERVE AN AWARD FOR THE WAY WE LIVED OUR LIVES, FOR THE CHOICE WE MADE, NOT TO DESTROY OTHERS TO SAVE OUR OWN CAREERS AND FOR OUR OWN SMALL VICTORIES. THIS MEMOIR IS ONE WOMAN'S PERSONAL HISTORY OF THOSE SMALL VICTORIES." [ BACKGROUND APPLAUSE ] >> NORMA, THANK YOU FOR SHARING [INAUDIBLE]. >> THANK YOU. THANK YOU, MATT. THANK YOU. YOU WERE GREAT -- [ PAUSE ]