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The Athinganoi (Ancient Greek: Ἀθίγγανοι, singular Athinganos, Ἀθίγγανος) were a 9th-century sect of Monarchians located in Phrygia, founded by Theodotus the Banker. The etymology of the word is not certain, but a common determination is a derivation in Greek for "(the) untouchables" derived from a privative alpha prefix and the verb thingano (θιγγάνειν, "thinganein", "to touch"). It is uncertain whether the sect survived beyond the 9th century. They were probably scattered across Anatolia and the Balkans following the destruction of the Paulician capital Tephrike in the 870s.

An earlier, and probably quite distinct, sect with the same name is refuted by Marcus Eremita, who seems to have been a disciple of St. John Chrysostom. His book Eis ton Melchisedek, or according to Photius "Against the Melchisedekites",[1] speaks of these new teachers as making Melchisedech an incarnation of the Logos (divine Word). They were anathematized by the bishops, but would not cease to preach. They seem to have been otherwise orthodox. St. Jerome (Ep. 73) refutes an anonymous work which identified Melchisedech with the Holy Ghost. About AD 600, Timotheus, Presbyter of Constantinople, in his book De receptione Haereticorum [2] adds at the end of his list of heretics who need rebaptism the Melchisedechians, "now called Athingani. They live in Phrygia, and are neither Hebrews nor Gentiles. They keep the Sabbath, but are not circumcised. They will not touch any man. If food is offered to them, they ask for it to be placed on the ground; then they come and take it. They give to others with the same precautions."

The name athinganoi, later variant form of which is atsinganoi, came to be associated with the Romani people who first appeared in the Byzantine Empire at the time and is the root word for "cigano", "çingene", "zigeuner", "tzigan", "țigan", and "zingaro", words used to describe members of the Romani people. Today many of these words are still used in a derogatory sense, albeit others are the most common exonym for them in a given language. It is still not clear if the athinganoi who were present in the 9th century in Europe are related to the Romani people of today.[3][4][5]

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  • ✪ Global Gypsy: Balkan Romani Music, Appropriation & Representation
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>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. >> Elizabeth Peterson: Good morning or afternoon. I'm not quite sure which one it is, but -- My name is Betsy Peterson and I'm the Director of the American Folk Life Center here at the Library of Congress, and on behalf of all the staff I want to welcome you here today for the latest in our Botkin, Benjamin Botkin Lecture Series which is an opportunity for the American Folk Life Center to offer the very best and latest in cultural heritage, oral history, ethnomusicology, and folk life scholarship, and share that with all of you. The lecture series here allows us to do a couple of things, not only share all of this great information but each lecture that is given here is videotaped and will eventually be webcast so that researchers around the world and future researchers can hear and learn from this. And it will become a permanent part of our archive. So with that said, if you could turn off any cell phones or any other electronic devices I would greatly appreciate it. Today we are really thrilled to be able to welcome a distinguished colleague, Carol Silverman, who's an award-winning Professor of Cultural Anthropology and Folklore at the University of Oregon in Eugene. Dr. Silverman has been involved with Balkan music and culture for over 30 years as a researcher, teacher, activist, and performer. She has focused on Bulgaria and Macedonia as well as on Balkan Romani immigrants to North American and Western Europe. Her work explores the relationship among politics, ethnicity, ritual, music, and gender as you can see from the -- her most recent book, <i>Romani Roots Cultural Politics and Balkan Music in Diaspora </i>, which is -- will be the topic of the lecture here today. It was published in 2012 by Oxford University Press and it has won high praise from all quarters, and received the prestigious Allan Marion Book Prize from the Society for Ethnomusicology. Over the years Carol Silverman's research has been supported by fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation, from NEH, ACLS or the American Council for Learned Societies, and many other foundations. And in 2014 she was inducted as a Fellow of the American Folklore Society. She is also a professional performer in her own right. I know some of you may have seen her yesterday. She provided some introductions for our concert of Esma Redzepova. But Carol also teachers Balkan music and works with the NGO Voice of Roma based in California, and I guess now in Berlin, Germany as well. She has performed with numerous musical groups including Zhenska Pesna [phonetic] and Trio Slavej. And she's recorded with the Yuri Yunakov Ensemble. So, immediately following today's talk we will have a short Question and Answer period, and then Dr. Silverman will be outside in the foyer and can sign books. But I want to encourage you to go out there. Please buy one of the book and talk with her some more. So with that said, please join me in welcoming Carol Silverman. [ Applause ] >> Carol Silverman: Thank you so much Betsy Peterson, Nancy Groce, Thea Austen, John Gold, and all the staff at the American Folklife Center, for inviting me here. Actually, I'm not really going to talk about my book because I'm going to be talking about my newer research that came out of the book. So whereas the book focused more on Romani music in their own communities, I'm actually talking about the popularization of Romani music among non-Roma and what happens when appropriation arises, what happens when the management of Romani music is in the hands of non-Roma. So you can see by my title I've put "Gypsy" for a -- in quotes very prominently. And that's because I only use it, actually, as a marketing term. Roma use the word "Gypsy" -- Roma do not use the word "Gypsy" if there are Romani speaking when they're speaking their own language. And so I'll be talking about names a little bit later. "Gypsy" is an outsider term, sometimes used by insiders, but Romani-speaking Roma would prefer the word "Roma." It means a person in their language. And in the English language "Gypsy" is an ethnic slur. It means to swindle or to cheat somebody, like he gypped me. So I avoid that term. But I can't when I'm studying the marketing of music because it's under the rubric "Gypsy" music. So remember the quotes. So today I'm going to be talking about the pathways of Romani music into commercial markets, DJs, celebrities, production houses around the world, festivals. For example, this festival that I studied in Belgium that continues -- actually, it's happening right now, the Balkan Traffic Festival, that actually under the rubric "Balkan" has about 90% Romani music. So these days the word "Balkan" and "Gypsy" are starting to mean the same thing even though Romani music has many, many genres that are in Balkan and many regions, and Balkan music has many genres that aren't Romani. So there's a collapsing then of sort of the market into a singular path. This festival featured three Balkan brass bands, and that's another collapsing at this moment because the most popular Balkan Roman music genre in popularity is brass music which is, again, a tiny part of Balkan Romani music in its entirety. But for outside audiences it seems like all Roma are doing is playing brass music. So the man in the white hat is Marko Markovich from the Boban and Marko Markovich Brass Band in Southern Serbia. But the first person listed there is Goran Bregovic, I'll be talking about him later, as a non-Romani appropriator of music who made Balkan music popular in his film scores. So we'll be looking at films, we'll be looing at festivals. I'm giving you a little taste of what's to come in the first five minutes. So where do we find quote Gypsies these days? We find Gypsies in the New York Gypsy Festival which is now, I think, in its 11th year. And every year the Statue of Liberty plays a different Romani instrument. But this festival over the years has had fewer and fewer Roma, so this is a trend I'll be talking about, "Gypsy" music without Roma, okay? So if you have their music, and other people are playing it, and people don't know much about it, why do you really need Roma anyway? Another group, Gogol Bordello, who coined the term "Gypsy Punk" as a genre, headed by the former DJ Eugene Hutz, they became really famous and they've crossed over not only to world music audiences but to pop music audiences. So they perform at festivals like Coachella and the biggest festivals in Europe. And they're no longer even world music. When they started out, Eugene Hutz claimed he was one-fourth Romani from Ukraine. People in the New York Community of Roma said "not really, no." But as he got more famous everyone sort of has to agree with him because he's the guy with the gigs. He's the one who has the contracts. Everyone wants to work with him. So now many more members of his band are even claiming that they're Roma. So one of the paradoxes I'm talking about is that in the music scene it's a cache, it's a step up, to be Roma. But outside the music scene it's absolutely low-class status. And this is the paradox that Roma are admired for their music but reviled as people. So I'll be introducing the political situation of the music. Madonna also got involved in Romani music in her Sticky and Sweet Tour in 2008/2009. She actually invited Eugene Hutz to perform with her, the guy from Gogol Bordello, but he was too busy. And we lobbied Eugene to substitute other people for him because other Roma should get a break in their career. And, finally, Madonna agreed to invite the Kolpakov Trio, which actually includes one Jewish member. The violinist Arkady Gips is from Ukraine, living in Columbus, Ohio. He's played Romani music quite a lot, and the Roma wanted him. So on Madonna's tour you had a 75-year-old guitarist, the uncle of the young guitarist. And this is unusual for Madonna. But did she do anything for Romani music? Well, people heard the music. She did in Bucharest, Romania. She put down her guitar and asked for quiet. And she asked the audience, "Do you love gypsy music?" "Yeah, we love Gypsy music." "I'm so happy you love gypsy music." And then she said, "But I'm so upset that you don't like Gypsies." And then she was booed by 60,000 people in the stadium she was performing in. And the international headlines were, "Madonna doesn't understand anything about our gypsy situation." What did she do? Well, she was lobbied by the musicians backstage to say something. So she tried, but failed. And then post-concert, she sold one shoe at an auction and donated it for a Romani cause. So that's the sum total of Madonna. But she's very important because she actually included the music. And then, of course, we have Borat. If you remember that film where 95% of the music was Balkan Romani music, and the film itself was staged in Glod, Romania, in southern Romania, a Romani village where the villagers themselves did sign releases for $10 a day because they knew this was a good income for them. But they had no idea they would be pictured as Kazakhstanis in bestiality positions, incest-type scenes. And they actually tried to sue Sasha Cohen as well as many other people in this film tried to sue him. But nobody actually can win against Sasha Cohen and his Hollywood legal team. Another woman who was featured in that film, Esma Redzepova, and she's performing tonight. If you are all free you will not be disappointed. This is a legend of Romani music from Macedonia, and she will be performing at the Millennium Stage at 6 p.m. tonight. She also sued Sasha Cohen because her -- the song that was used in the film was on a Dutch label, but she had a clause, she's very smart, unlike a lot of other Roma who actually don't have the legal background to put these clauses in their contracts, or they don't have contracts at all. She had a legal clause in her contract with the Dutch firm that said if it's used, her music is used in a film, she had to give personal permission. And they did not. The film just gave it. So she was able to recover some money from the Dutch film, not from Sasha Cohen. And another recent thing is Jason Derulo's hit "Talk Dirty," which used a saxophone riff, which many Balkan Roma listened to and said, "Oh, my god. That sounds like Udi Yunakov or some of our famous saxophone players." It was definitely a Balkan saxophone riff. But, actually, it was taken from Balkan Beat Box, a group composed of Americans and Israelis, no Roma. But the saxophone player, Ori Kaplan, in the group took lessons from Udi Yunakov. Actually, he's one of the National Heritage Fellows and you've seen him here in Washington. Udi lives in New Jersey, and Ori took lessons for him. But Ori took his music, put it on this album, and then when Jason Derulo needed to license it, it didn't involve Uri at all. So there's Uri's music but without Uri anymore. And where else are Gypsies these days? Well, we can see Gypsies on television in reality shows. If you know the history of this particular show, it started in England as<i> My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding </i>. It got the largest viewership of the BBC channel it was on. It's a sensational show, emphasizing violence, sexuality, teen marriages, conflict in the society, and it isn't even about Gypsies. It's about Travelers or people who have intermarried in England, Roma, and Travelers, and even groups that were paid to stage these exotic-type rituals. And so we have, basically -- this is the information that the public knows about Roma. And then the TLC took it up in America and made the American version using families from the south in Texas and Mississippi. They, again, were paid to do exaggerated type of rituals and violence. Then the National Geographic Channel took up this kind of craze for Gypsy reality TV. We thought maybe it would be more educational. They even tried to appear educational by putting a Romani glossary on their website. And they asked scholars for endorsements. Of course we were very, very, very suspicious. I'm not Romani myself, but I work with Roma and basically people ask you for endorsements of Gypsy projects all the time, and you have to be really, really careful. So you can tell this is, again, sensational about fortunetelling scams. This is about the Kalderash Group, a family in New York. But, again, they were paid to exaggerate their customs, to fight on camera on purpose. Okay. So, in addition, there's an entire network of DJs doing sampled and digitized Roma music which they take from Balkan groups and they have trademarked the name. It is a, under trademark, BalkanBeats. And this is a whole network of hundreds of DJs. They started in Western Europe and now they've gone to America and Japan, Australia, and Mexico. It's very big. So I'll be talking about this scene as well, the kind of sampled world of Balkan music. And then here in New York we have many different clubs that have this kind of music, sometimes mixed with live Romani music. But a lot of sampled music where you don't need Roma anymore. So just to review, basically, I am talking about this paradox that Roma are revered for their music, yet reviled as people. And historically the stereotype about Gypsies is two-pronged. One may appear to be positive because it's about romanticism, musicality, talented people who don't need to work, who sit around the fire every day enjoying music. It's a stereotype that is totally fantasy and it goes hand-in-hand with the negative stereotype of criminality and don't trust these people and they will steal from you. So I would say even, and, of course, stereotypes have been studied by scholars. We know that the positive and the negative are intertwined. This is very true for African Americans. Not everybody is a basketball player. Very, very important to look at positive stereotyping and the damage that it does. And I don't even call it positive, but in the literature you call it. And I mentioned already the name issue that I'm not using Gypsy except when I have to for the marketing label, and that's actually what I'm studying. The other labels, Tsigan, which is tsigganos, Tsigane, in many different European languages, those -- that's also a false label because it comes from the word "Athinganoi" which is from a Byzantine heretical sect, and those were not related to Roma either. That word is also a putdown in many, many Balkan and Slavic romance languages. Okay. So what are we talking about -- just a little bit of history? We're talking about Roma as an Indian diaspora from South Asia. Linguistic evidence has led us to tie the Romani language to Sanskrit, and even to modern-day Hindi, and the diversity of Romani subgroups even in earlier migration, but definitely in the current-day diaspora. Okay? So some people ask what does unite Roma? Well, if they speak the Romani language they can understand each other. But only half the world's Roma speak Romani because it wasn't to their advantage in some places to continue their language. Some Roma passed out of that category. Some were forced by governments, schools, to abandon their language, to leave it. Okay? So even nomadism and sedentarism is a complicated issue. Not all Roma are nomadic, and even those that are nomadic might have been forced to move due to wars, due to evictions, due to prejudice. So there are Roma, for example, in the Balkans that have been sedentary for hundreds of years and don't relate well to nomadism. Or they might be seasonal nomads or musical nomads because they find their craft. Metal craft workers perhaps would take a seasonal route in -- certainly we have evidence of Roma in the Middle Ages taking their forges, their blacksmithing tools, from town to town to service people. So Roma have been very integrated into the economy of Europe for hundreds of years as metalworkers, horse doctors, musicians, middlemen, peddlers, some fortunetellers -- although not all groups -- offering amulets or advice. You might say it's a folk psychiatry before psychiatry was invented. Some of the very tragic periods of Romani history need to be mentioned here. Slavery in Southern Romania, in Wallachia and Moldavia, for 500 years where Roma were owned by the church and by the nobility, and traded at auctions, selected and sorted according to their populations and their occupations -- the gold washers, the agricultural workers, the musicians, the horse dealers. The Nazi period in which Roma were singled out for extinction and genocide just like Jews. And now we know over a million -- well, half-a-million to a million Roma perished. And a lot of activism about getting the recognition of Roma in the Holocaust. Our Holocaust Museum here in America, when it first opened here on the Mall, had a Romani Board Member, and then when that person stepped down, for over 10 years there was no Romani person on the Board. Just this year, Ethel Brooks from Rutgers University was appointed. So it's a constant battle to get recognition of Roma. Many other things during the more recent Socialist period such as taking the wheels off of caravans of nomadic Roma, making their music illegal, banning their language, banning Romani types of dress. Many, many things can be listed. Probably most striking would be the forced sterilization or Romani women in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Finland, Sweden, places in the West, just like other indigenous groups, the Sami, and this has happened certainly in America as well. And still today we have the tracking of Romani children into special schools. This means, assuming that they are disabled because perhaps they speak the majority language with an accent or just their dark skin, and putting them into schools for the disabled which is a track you never get out of, and you're not in an academic track. And a very important case was adjudicated in the town of Ostrava in the Czech Republic where they showed that it was 27 times more likely for a Romani child to end up in a special school than a Czech student. And still, in the European Court of Human Rights that case failed the first time. It only won on appeal. So these are the kinds of battles that Roma and allies are fighting. And if you think the U.S. is a little more open, it is in some ways, just because Americans are more private. But still in the U.S., in southern states there are quote "gypsy crime units" attached to police departments. They're called Bunco Squads and they are paid for by your tax dollars and they assume that there are Roma who do certain kinds of crimes, and only those crimes are done by Roma, and only Roma do those crimes. So it's a real huge assumption and it's a form of racial profiling. And not to mention what I'd call the entire erasure of Roma from European history, American history, and so on. So today Roma is the largest minority in Europe. The majority actually reside in EU states. And they have some of the lowest rates of social integration, you can see here on the PowerPoint, in healthcare, education, all of the indicators. But most striking, of course, is employment, how little employment there are because of discrimination and also Roma were tracked out of skilled jobs in the Socialist government. All the streetcleaners, for example, were Roma in Poland, Bulgaria, Romania. So after socialism, many didn't have the skills. And those that had the skills were not allowed to assume jobs. They're just cut out. And there's tremendous prejudice against Roma in Europe today. When I do my field work, even educated professors tell me, "Oh, don't go to that Romani neighborhood. You'll be killed, you'll be raped." Of course, they've never been in that Romani neighborhood. They don't know any Roma, but they have the historic prejudices. And then if I invite them, they'll say, "Oh, my God. This is an amazingly nice house. I had no idea." You know, contact really does help. And the most upsetting thing, of course, is physical violence and intimidation. Lots of incidences of targeting of Roma, burning down houses. Many of these cases are still in the courts. Roma rarely get justice. This has been compounded these days by migration. So after the wall came down in 1989, many Roma, of course, wanted to move to Western Europe for better jobs, better opportunities. And it turns out West Europeans are pretty prejudiced, too. So there's been a hysteria, a panic, about the floods, the migrations, of East Europeans. You might know the Italian fingerprinting incident a few years ago where the Italian government -- Berlusconi decided to fingerprint all Roma, to have a database for criminality. This is so reminiscent of World War II. Okay? Can you imagine that, an entire ethnic group? There have been expulsions of EU citizens, who have the right to work in Western Europe, back to Eastern Europe. And outside the EU, in places like Kosovo where it is really not safe for Roma to be there, there are expulsions back to Kosovo of children, families who have raised an entire generation in Western Europe. There are continuing demonstrations against Roma. It's a very tense situation. And you might remember the Greek "Blond Maria" incident where a blond six-year-old was found in a Turkish Romani settlement. Pardon me, a Greek Romani settlement. And the -- when the police saw her they assumed, because she's blond, that she was kidnapped. So this is a really old European stereotype, you know, stolen by the Gypsies. And actually when they investigated -- it took a long time, and all the media was about the "abducted Maria," okay, "blond Maria abduction" narrative. When they found out what happened, it was actually a Bulgarian Romani family who was albino who was working for better wages in Greece and the Greek Romani family offered to watch the kids and raise them because it's a better standard, even though it looked pretty bad to the police when they saw the "blond Maria." The Bulgarian family had worse standard of living and left their child there voluntarily, to be raised by a higher class Romani family. But the ramifications of this incident were terrible. Even as far as England, Roma, Romani chilcren in England were going to school and being told, "Oh, well, you know, do you have a blond sister in your basement?" You know, "Did you steal my blond sister?" Terrible types of ramifications. So here's some photos of some of the things that are going on. The Hungarian Guard, which was actually banned, is an informal part of the Jobbik Party which sits in the Hungarian Parliament, a xenophobic party that patrols villages to keep Gypsies out. And they are using Nazi symbolism and it is quite scary. And there have been anti-Romani protests everywhere. This happens to be one from Bulgaria. So now back to music. What does music have to do with politics? Well, music never operates outside of the political sphere. It is actually one of the realms where Roma have some control. But what I'm going to show is that this control is being contested in the commercial markets by a lot of non-Romani forces. So I wanted to show you a little bit about the music in some traditional Romani communities -- that kind of music that you won't see on the commercial stage, okay? So I'm going to be looking at insider/outsider boundaries and so on. So here are some Romani settlements in -- this one is in Bulgaria, in a Western Thrace, and this is a wedding from 1990. And this is another wedding from 1984, in Western Thrace as well. Roma communities coalesce around music. It is a very important performative means to show your family solidarity, your extended kin networks, how you are allied, and, of course, the artistry of the music itself. Plus gender roles are extremely important. Women are very much in charge of rituals. They have knowledge that they impart to the younger generation, to tell them what to do when. These women are bringing gifts in Macedonia to the bride's family, and those gifts will actually be opened one by one, and in public people will announce who they came from, how much they cost, and where this person is located. So this diaspora of family security is very important. So let's look at a few videos of these very short. [ Film: Singing and sounds from the crowd ] So we are in Macedonia, in Suto Orizaro, one of the largest Romani neighborhoods outside of Skopje known as Sutka. And these are the groomswomen in a wedding bringing gifts to the bride's family with zurla-tapan which is a historic Romani instrument. In fact, it's been a monopoly of Roma for 500 years until recently, when non-Roma are learning it. And it's an outdoor procession type of instrument. [ Music ] This is the henna party for the bride. You could see henna on a round tray with red gauze on top of it. [ Music ] Okay. So let me go on. Just going to give you a little taste. So, back to my argument about music. This is one type of very historic and contemporary Romani music that you will not find at any Western festivals, or even on CDs readily available. But it is very much a part of Balkan Roma life. Here's another wedding in Sutka, Macedonia. And now we'll look at some dancing on the day of the henna party for the bride. These are Muslim Roma. Henna is actually used by Eastern Orthodox in Greece as well. It's a vegetable dye that you put on the bride's hair. [ Music ] You can see the predominance of women dancing and male instrumentalists. So there are segregated roles. [ Music ] Okay. And here's a bride from Sutka, Macedonia. And now we'll see a scene from the bride's day. Weddings in 1990 were about five days long. Now they're only two days long. But this is the Saturday of the wedding. The bride is in the middle. And her type of solo dancing, cocek, is very modest. It is related to belly dancing, but no skin is used. And she's surrounded by her family. [ Music ] So here you can see actually a little solo performance of cocek at a banquet. Again, this type of movement is considered beautiful. Girls practice it, women treasure it, men are encouraging. But the very same movement before strange men in a bar would be considered very, like a prostitute. It would be very unacceptable. Absolutely not. So it's not the movement itself, but the context. >> Sani Rifati: Who said that? [laughter] >> Carol Silverman: That's my colleague Sani Rifati. I was going to introduce him before. But he came in late. Activist from Kosovo now living in Berlin. And we work together. And he'll have some comments later I'm sure [laughter]. There may be other activists in Roma in the audience, and I'd love your comments. Okay [inaudible comment from audience, laughter]. So Roma from the Balkans have migrated, okay? As soon as they could, even in the 1960s in the Yugoslav Guest Worker Program, they were going to Australia, Germany, Austria, America. But more recently, many Roma have left since the fall of Yugoslavia. And so I'm following Roma around the world because the music is very much unified. People listen to the same music. People have the same hits every new summer. And so this is a party I went to in Dusseldorf. I was visiting Sani's cousins, and 2 to 3 thousand Roma gather for these parties in Western Europe. Now the thing to remember is that this is a Romani community event. But maybe next door is a bar with a DJ playing Romani music for Germans that have nothing to do with the Roma next to them. So it's a really separate scene even though maybe all non-Roma know is the festival or the bar. There's an active Romani migration scene, diaspora, in Western Europe and America. So this party -- in fact, the drummer tonight is from [foreign placename], this band that I saw in Dusseldorf. So we're going to see a wonderful band tonight. And another branch of the Macedonian Romani diaspora is in New York City. So I've worked with them since the 1980s, and they've been in the city actually since the '60s. And that's a very, very active scene, hundreds of families. They live in that neighborhood. It used to be an Italian neighborhood. Yes. >> Sani Rifati: Carol, I'm sorry. But really I have to jump -- >> Carol Silverman: Yes. >> Sani Rifati: previous -- >> Carol Silverman: Okay. >> Sani Rifati: in Dusseldorf -- >> Carol Silverman: Yes, okay. >> Sani Rifati: I live now in Berlin, and I am working and trying to collaborate these Roma NGOs, so-called. So one of the things is Roma are very determined to have a party just for us Roma. And really they are determined because of this global Gypsy phenomenon. And they're disgusted with this marketing and colonizing the Gypsy image. And so, for me, working for all these years with you and producing Roma festivals, I think it's important to do a gathering and for Roma and for the outsiders because really then you have a dialog or no. >> Carol Silverman: Yeah, I understand. >> Sani Rifati: But because of this phenomena, it's so much colonized, the image and the culture and in the meantime the Roma feel they're losing their identity. And it's important to gather in one place. For example, in San Francisco, you have gay and lesbian bars, for example. But, and, you see, those are places safe for them to be there. And this is what is now coming out from this Roma event in Dusseldorf. >> Carol Silverman: Yes. I think that's a very important point, that communities do need places to share their own culture. But there should be maybe other places where there's interaction across ethnic lines. And so, you know, we're trying -- I would say it would be good to do both types of things. But I can certainly say that the people running the festivals don't care about Romani communities, and that's my critique because I'm non-Roma and I feel like I need to work with my own people and present a critique of it, okay? So in the Bronx, they have parties and so on just like in Dusseldorf, just like in Macedonia. Many of the musicians play in mixed bands, so Bulgaria, Macedonia, quite a number of bands. The events sort of look the same, but they're in banquet halls and you can't really do it in front of your house. But they try. They have some kind of acoustic music in front of the house. You can see one event here, I'll play one or two, from New York. [ Music ] So some of the older women do wear shalvari, the traditional Muslin 10 meters of pantaloon costume. [ Music ] And this is very early in the wedding, so only the close females are dancing. The woman leading is the groom's mother. And I'll just go on to show one other wedding with an amplified band. Oops, this did not catch. Let me go back. [ Music ] [ Music and Singing ] Okay. So now I'm going to move into the commercial markets. You've seen a little bit about different kinds of Romani communities. So only a few bands from the Balkans have made it into you might say the world music market, have been successful. But when non-Roma kind of see them, they sort of think every Romani orchestra back in the village is like benefitting from a festival in Belgium. And that's really a false impression. Only a few bands get hired over and over again in the West. So this Balkan Trafik Festival that I mention, had three brass bands. Two of them were from South Serbia, this one, Boban and Marko Markovich, Ekrem Mamutovich from like just 10 miles away. And why did they need to have two bands? Because they staged a Balkan brass battle. Again, the promotors figure out gimmicks in order to present these bands in a new way. So I'll get back to that later on. And a third band from Macedonia, the Braka Kadrievi, half of whom actually live in Belgium, anyway. So it was cheap to hire them. Now brass music is part of Balkan tradition, but only in certain places. So this is in Southern Serbia in a Serbian wedding where Romani musicians played. So it is active, but it's actually declining in some parts. But you wouldn't know that if you looked at a Western festival where all you see is brass. And also in Eastern Macedonia you do have brass bands. But due to this man, Goran Bregovic, brass has become the defining genre of quote "Gypsy music." And he's a non-Romani man from Bosnia of mixed background, Serbian, who worked with the filmmaker Emir Kusturica and wrote the film music. But actually took it from Romani sources and put his name as the copyright owner. So he is absolutely hated and reviled as a thief by most Roma. They call him an appropriator and a thief, and yet he got the top billing in Belgium. And he makes more money than any Romani band. His fees are now about 30,000 euros for his show. He doesn't like appear just for a little while. He needs his whole show. And he appeared at a Guca Brass Band Festival, which is a festival of competition of the best brass bands, okay? So he's really loved by non-Romani audiences, and they even mistake him as Roma. They call him the, you know, Ambassador of Romani Music. But he's not. So I'm drawing attention to what I'm calling the dialog between celebratory and anxious narratives of world music that Steven Feld has written about. And celebratory narratives tend to look at appropriation and exchange as a win-win situation. All you're doing is providing new creativity, new artistic impetus. What could be bad about it when we're all sharing each other's culture? The anxious narratives -- of course I'm going to critique the celebratory -- but the anxious narratives, I would critique some of them, too, because some of the anxious narratives are about purity of music. We should keep things pure. And I don't subscribe to that at all. Romani music has never been pure. Romani music has been an economic commodity; has always been given and taken by neighboring peoples. But I do subscribe to the anxious mentality when we talk about the political economy. What are the terms of the trade when you exchange music? Who is profiting? Who is setting the terms of those contract or no contracts? Who's in charge of getting the gigs, of dividing the money? The other thing is that "hybridity" has been used a lot to valorize any type of cultural exchange, that something mixed is always good. It destabilizes these old kind of categories, the binaries that we have, that mixtures and borders are inherently good. But I would say that there's a very healthy critique of hybridity. Hybridity is also a marketing category. It's been used to actually put a stamp on the earlier category that valorized ethnic music as authentic. Like ethnic music comes from kind of stable communities that have their real folklore, their real traditions. That was the earlier phase of world music marketing in like, you know, the '80s. But by the '90s, now you see marketing that says if it's hybrid it must be authentic. So they hybrid becomes the authentic. And I think we have to be suspicious of all of these marketing labels, especially because hybridity has actually been used to discredit Gypsy music in the scholarship. Serbian scholars have said they don't play real Serbian music. They just play their version with some kind of, you know, Eastern ornaments or some corrupted type of rhythms. So, again, hybridity is not inherently liberating or progressive. It has to be seen in its context. So I'm actually analyzing how decisions get made about releasing Gypsy music to non-Roma by looking at the producers themselves. So one of the biggest production houses is in Germany, Asphalt Tango, and they still do the old types of stereotypes -- exotic, sexual, passionate, dangerous, from far away, maybe peasants. Again, either they are authentic or hybrid as authentic. They picture Roma on their CD covers as either villagers or living in mud or with animals. And they stage what I called before the Balkan Brass Battle with two huge brass bands, Boban Markovich from Serbia and Fanfare Ciocarlia as Romania. And the way they staged it is to take this group, which does come a village, from a village, so you could call them peasants. That's okay. But they stage Boban Markovich as cowboys. So it was the cowboys versus the peasants. So they wore cowboy hats, and this is how they were portrayed, and it was a kind of almost violent type of thing on stage. In fact, one of the stagers told me they were supposed to take their trumpets, go back to back, walk three paces, turn around, and then play at each other like it's a duel. So, again, they're hinting at kind of violence. >> Sani Rifati: They got that from Americans? >> Carol Silverman: Yes. So these questions I've been asking are about representation, about hybridity, about who benefits from the popularization of Balkan Gypsy music and the economic context in hierarchies of power. And I'm going to end with two other strands. And this is back to the DJs. So the BalkanBeats trademark came from this particular fellow, I'll go back to that, Robert Soko, who's an ex-pat from Yugoslavia, Bosnian, living in Berlin. And now there's a network of hundreds of DJs. You can see some of the posters. They use Romani words without really understanding what they mean. They're talking about drunken parties. Again, a lot of these sort of stereotypes of Roma who just know how to have a good time. End of story. Okay. And here he is DJing and this is the Lido in Berlin. He has a monthly party and it's very well attended. This was 300 people waiting outside at 3 a.m. So it's very well attended. And you can't use the name without involving Robert Soko. So these are -- this is what the scene looks like. It has expanded to America. Kafana Balkan is in San Francisco, Mehanata in New York. There are some clubs in Chicago I went to. There's a healthy Scene in Mexico, Japan, and Australia as well. All of these DJs are non-Roma, okay? There's maybe one Roma I found in a Vienna club, and he was the busboy in the club and heard the music and started dancing, and the DJ said, "Oh, you know how to dance?" He said, "Well, this is my music!" from the Balkans. So they showed him how to do some DJing. But he's not one of the ones who travels. So let me just show you what the scene looks like. [ Singing ] [ Music ] Okay. So some of the DJs are willing to do some research and they do some really creative things in terms of their artistry and the weaving together, the back beats and so on. But others are basically curators. They just take Goran Bregovic tunes, the man I mentioned before who wrote the film scores with a lot of brass music. And they kind of play the same thing over and over again. And most striking is that they don't really know that there are Roma living in a neighborhood next to them, maybe having parties or doing a different kind of music -- wedding music -- whole other kinds of Romani music. If you look at their visuals, the DJs rely on historical stereotypes. These, you know, a lot of skin, women, words like Gypsy dance party, [Mistores?], which means good. But that's the DJs name. The Gypsy sounds -- even their names of the DJs are all about Gypsy, Gypsy -- Gypsy sound system, the Gypsy box, the Tsiganisation Project. Remember that word "tsiganisation" because it's very problematic. This woman, a woman actually in -- >> Sani Rifati: Why [inauduble] -- >> Carol Silverman: -- Slovenia -- >> Sani Rifati: -- in Sega? >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. >> Sani Rifati: Why don't you translate it? >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. I did before you came. >> Sani Rifati: Oh. >> Carol Silverman: Okay. This woman calls herself Gipsy Jungle, okay, and has the brass sticking out the jungle again, you know, uncivilized. Many use visuals from the former, you know, former Soviet times, the old cars, the old trains, a lot of brass, accordions, and so on. This DJ made a symbol called the trumpet-nikov. He combined the Kalashnikov and the trumpet. And to me that's pretty problematic. I asked him if it had anything to do with guns. He said, oh, no. It doesn't have anything to do with guns. It's about the song "Kalashnikov," which Goran Bregovic wrote. And the song is about guns. But there's certainly a violent implication there. And these are some young guys who don't have any money and actually lose money on their projects. But they call themselves the Tsiganization Project, and remember that word because I'm going to be talking about now the highest paid DJ, Shantel from Germany, who has a very illustrious career. He does about 250 shows a year. These are all his CDs. He's very, very, very famous. He doesn't take part in the BalkanBeats Network because he doesn't even need them. He doesn't need that word BalkanBeats. But he wrote a song called "Disko Partizani" in 2007, and the refrain is "Tsiganizatia." But you have to understand that Tsiganizatia, which means Gypsyfication, is used by right-wing xenophobic parties to say our country is becoming too Gypsyfied. Let's get rid of those folks. So, again, even hearing that word is very, very problematic. But he's using it as the refrain of his song. So I'm coming to the end now and I'd like to start where -- to end where I started, talking a little bit about celebrities. So here is our friend Vadim Kolpakov with his 74-year-old uncle and the Jewish violinist on the Madonna tour. And Vadim tried very, very hard to get Madonna interested in Romani music, and he made this film to thank her. And so you can see a little bit about what happens when Romani music is taken into pop culture, okay? And after that I will take questions and thank everybody. So this will be the last video. [ Music ] So that's Vadim dancing Russian Romani style. Very similar to Central European. [ Music ] >> Film: Madonna, we thank you for giving us opportunity to present Romani musical culture arond the world. [ Music and Singing ] [ Music ] >> Carol Silverman: Okay. Well, thank you very much. [ Applause ] And I would love to hear your comments because this is a work in progress. I am working on this new project, so if you have any experience with Gogol Bordello or any of the genres I'm talking about, I would love to hear about it. And we also have other very qualified people in the audience to help answer questions. Yes, your hand was up first. >> Audience member: I'm wondering if it's a question of the zurla [inaudible], the Roma and the -- >> Carol Silverman: So, the zurla or zurna was banned in Bulgaria during the Socialist period in 1984. So between '84 and '89 you couldn't play that loud instrument. It's the first one you heard. That outdoor instrument that's double-reeded. And that was a Socialist Government decision -- probably had input from Moscow of targeting Muslims and Roma, so Turks and Roma. So the Romani language, Turkish language, circumcisions, Romani costume, Turkish costume, and zurla were outlawed. But after 1989 it's now free. So Roma are playing the zurla everywhere. My point was that zurla is not found in the festivals for non-Roma if you wondered that. Yeah. >> Sani Rifati: Carol, under the Communism, most of these Eastern European countries would really sponsor and finance their national instrument from the country. Given that zurla comes from India, it was foreign to Bavarians. But in the meantime compared to [inaudible] these instruments were the Romance diaspora, not the ethnic Bavarians or other groups in the Balkans. So many instruments were their music preserved no matter what. Even [inaudible]. >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. Zurla players, even when it was illegal and you could go to jail for playing it, were playing it in private ceremonies with somebody posted on the roof to look out for police coming. Okay? So if you make something illegal, that doesn't necessarily mean it goes away. It goes underground, and actually becomes more important to people's life. Bulgarian wedding music was also prohibited, and people went to jail for it. And that survived underground as well. Yes. >> Female audience member: I'm just curious if you can comment on production and representation issues in the movie <i>Gypsy Caravan </i>[inaudible]. >> Carol Silverman: Mm-hmm. Okay, so the movie,<i> The Gypsy Caravan:</i> <i>When the Road Bends </i>by Jasmine Dellal, that is a documentary film about the North American Tour Gypsy Caravan. I was on that tour. I'm in the movie. I have a very, like two seconds in it. The first tour was in 1999 and the second tour was 2001. And Jasmine mostly documented the tour in 2001, but she included the band Taraf De Haidouks from 1999. So when you watch the film you think it's one tour, but it's actually two tours combined. So the film includes amazing Romani music from Romania Taraf De Haidouks, Antonio El Pipa from Jerez in Spain, several other groups. And I think it gives a good idea of the backstories of these musicians. There were some problems with the films just in translation and so on. But I do think, if I'm -- it is the film you're asking about, right? Okay. It does give a good biography of the musicians -- Esma Redzepova. is in that film as well -- of their backstories. But, yeah, it got some distribution and I'm glad it was made, mm-hmm. >> Sani Rifati: I was at the -- I worked very closely with Jasmine in that film. And this is exactly what Carol talked entirely presentation. And I had an agreement with her not to market that with just another Gypsy title, you know, to capture the audience. And guess what? She did exactly that because the producer said "if you want really to be successful then you have to title it Gypsy." And I really fell apart with Jasmine since then with -- are not any more good friends, because this is another colonization of the -- trying to market the wild Gypsy. So this is really a serious part of it. Yeah. >> Carol Silverman: Anybody else have any comments or questions? Yes, thank you. >> Male audience member: I guess I would say just the other side is, you know, I was looking in here up in early 2000, and I think it was really popular like in [inaudible] is the techno music. And after a while it's just really excruciatingly boring. And so I'm just wondering if there was this need to do something that just seemed less boring and different. >> Carol Silverman: Well, of course you know music tastes are personal. What's boring to you might be really interesting to other people because it puts them in a trance or really gives them a groove. But I will say that in the BalkanBeat scene -- I'm talking about the dance clubs with remixed music -- many of those DJs were in techno and house music before they moved into the Balkan scene. And in the 1990s the techno scene was kind of, just kind of going along, not really getting speed. And the Balkan had this new energy, the melodies are different. And that's what caught people's attention. So I do think that the introduction of Balkan music into the dance club scene was a very historic moment in capturing youth audiences mostly in Germany, Austria, Belgium, and so on. And a lot of the DJs actually learned about remixing Balkan music because their audiences want it. So the DJs actually moved over. Shantel, Stefan Hantel, he's from Germany, from Frankfurt, he was a techno DJ, not very distinguished. And as soon as he started doing Balkan stuff, that's where he got his reputation. So there is something in what you're saying. >> Sani Rifati: There is also this huge scene in San Francisco with this -- we can them techies. Most of the young kids are working for Silicon Valley. And the [Cabana?] Balkans which Carol showed in one of the photos, the organizer brings his [inaudible] and he's DJing, and he's trying really kind of to get -- and these people are working very hard. Probably they put in one week 60 to 80 hours of work. And then they got to party. There is nothing going on. They just jump up and down because their life is so busy and so this is for them like one outlet to become like wild Gypsy. So, mm. >> Carol Silverman: I haven't done too much on ethnographic work with clubbers themselves, but I've done a little. And when I've interviewed them and I said "what do you like about the BalkanBeats?" they usually say the energy, the different kinds of melodies, the variety. So I think they're looking for something new. In Europe actually, the BalkanBeats DJ's seen as going down. In America it's going up. It's going way up in Mexico, Australia, and Japan. So the markets change. You know, Europeans have had it longer. They started it in the '90s. America much, much later, even 15 years later. So that's what I'm studying now. I'm looking for the new markets. Yes. >> Female audience member: I just want to say that yours is a space that I'm familiar with. The Roma and -- since you have the opportunity to present here, and you say with a German audience in Heidelberg, yeah, the [inaudible] center for the [inaudible]. And one of the most fascinating [inaudible] that I found was a bringing together of flamenco musicians and dancers, the musicians and dancers from [inaudible] which was organized by the center. It was really fascinating to see the interaction. >> Carol Silverman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. A lot of Romani events do like to show Roma from the diaspora. And sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't musically. There was a project, The Gypsy Caravan Tour that you asked about. A Rockefeller Grant was secured for the second tour to have a project between Musafir, which was later retitled Maharaja. That was the Rajasthani Group and Antonio El Pipa, again bringing flamenco and the Rajasthani musicians together. But that's problematic, too. The Rajasthani musicians that go around the world today under the rubric "Gypsies," we don't really know if they are Rajasthani musicians from over a thousand years ago. We don't really know what group Roma came from, maybe Kabelias. But the Rajasthani ones in Maharaja and Musafir are Langa and [foreign word]. They're nothing to do with modern-day European Roma. So all of this is hypothetical and when I wrote the program notes and I was the Educational Coordinator for the first <i>Gypsy Caravan </i>, and I tried to problematize this in the notes, but the producer said, oh, no, no. Just say they're all one people. Just say they're all one people. So like the audience is hungry to know about the unity of Roma, but actually the musicians like to talk about the diversity, and scholars as well. Yes, you had your hand up, yeah. >> Male audience member: Oh, yeah. I just had a flashback. I remember -- maybe you all may remember this song that is by singer Cher. >> Carol Silverman: Cher? >> Male audience member: Yeah, the song called "Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves." >> Carol Silverman: Yes. >> Male audience member: And I think it was a hit. It definitely was a hit, but it also perpetuated that negative stereotype now that I'm coming to this forum and finding out, you know, how the Roma community really feels about their culture being prostituted. >> Carol Silverman: Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. I mean, again, this is a very old pattern of using Gypsies as, again, thieves, tramps, or you know, happy-go-lucky wanderers. But not real people. So kind of a fantasy thing. Yes. >> Female audience member: So, I like Gipsy Kings Band. Do you have any comments about them? >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. The Gipsy Kings band are from Southern France. And they founded a style of rumba that took some from flamenco and some from Sinti culture and other types of Roma. They were very important because they were the first Romani band to tour from the West into Eastern Europe after 1989. So they were at all the festivals. The first like Roma festivals in Bulgaria had the Gipsy Kings, and they're still going. They're a family band. But, again, it's one genre of Romani culture. Again, some people may object to their title, but they know the word "Gipsy" sells. So there are, again, bands that would self-stereotype because they know they need to. Yeah. And they have a really amazing quality of music, absolutely. >> Sani Rifati: And, actually, their parents did the first recording in New York in 1951. >> Carol Silverman: Oh, I didn't know that. >> Sani Rifati: So it's [inaudible] They brought them to New York, that was their first recording. >> Carol Silverman: Yeah, so, I mean, there are families in Southern France who have done that kind of music for a long time for insiders. And they were the first group to kind of break out in, again, in the -- they got into pop audiences which is -- the're even larger than world music audiences. [ Inaudible Speaker ] >> Carol Silverman: Oh, okay, great. Mm-hmm. Yes. >> Male audience member: I'm going to ask you -- this isn't remotely related to the entire topic here. But, Django Reinhardt and how the phenomena of Gypsy jazz -- which has become a genre like bluegrass -- >> Carol Silverman: Oh, yeah. >> Male audience member: They play swing tunes on acoustic instruments, same as [inaudible]. It seems like it's international. There's probably a [inaudible]. >> Carol Silverman: Yes, I'm sure there is. >> Male audience member: How do the Roma perc-- it's not going away. >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. >> Male audience member: Well, how do the Roma perceive that? >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. "Gypsy" Jazz, again, is a genre that comes directly from Django Reinhardt. So he was a Belgian guitarist. I'm sure you know the history. But Belgian guitarist who started playing with jazz musicians and brought some of his Romani heritage into jazz, and people imitate him now. Not only his family but many non-Roma and it's actually the most, I would say, accessible style of Romani music because it's been around a long time. He lived in the '20s and '30s, through the War, actually. So "Gypsy" jazz has been on the radar for non-Romani audiences and many, many non-Roma learn "Gypsy" jazz styles. But the word itself -- he didn't coin the word, the genre named "Gypsy jazz." Many other people prefer to call it Sinti jazz or Manouche jazz. That's the name for themselves. That's what they call it. They're a subgroup of Roma in France and Spain called Manouche in Belgium as well. And there's a very, very excellent scholar getting her dissertation at NYU writing about this, Siv Lie, and she's going to be, hopefully, publishing soon. She's working with Django's family today. >> Male audience member:How do the Roma feel about that, though? >> Sani Rifati: Can I talk about that, Carol? >> Carol Silverman: Yeah, sure, go ahead. Yeah. >> Sani Rifati: The "Gypsy" jazz, actually, again -- we go back to this kind of how to market the music and to sell it. Actually the "Gypsy" jazz, I would call it rather a Manouche. That's the style that Django Reinhardt invented. What he did -- he used the -- given that he was Manouche from France-- from the French in Belgium. He used this style of the French music, kind of like a waltz style, an old Indian classic raga, okay? And what was he notorious for? He invented this style of la pompa which means the pump. And the emphasis -- >> Carol Silverman: Rhythm. >> Sani Rifati: -- are on the second beat and the fourth. When you go one, two, three, four, with a guitar. They guitar sounds like a drum. But now there is also a very interesting phenomena coming out from Europe. Synthegenesis -- actually not in the genre of music. It's -- that is either swing or jazz music or it's a Manouche style playing [inaudible]. It's trying to get somehow through the music their identity which they tend to kind of differentiate themselves from the Roma, especially from the Balkans. >> Carol Silverman: I would add that according to Siv Lie's research, that is now coming out in her dissertation. There are many Romani songs that Manouche people play only for themselves. But when they go on stage they'll play Sinti jazz. But they have other repertoires that they only use themselves. So they distinguish between what they use for like selling their music and what they have at home. Many of the Roma don't distinguish. In the Balkans they don't have any secret songs or anything like that. Whatever, you know, people want they'll play at a festival. So you have to look at each group separately and see how they manage their repertoire. Yes, Amy. >> Female audience member: Let me see if I can phrase this right. So I've been somewhat associated with some of this music in my own American way for my whole life. And it's usually been in really small groups of people. And sometimes they'll give a huge party and there'll be hundreds of people, but they're still mostly Americans. But, again, you know, something like the [inaudible] Balkan is 10 times as many people listening to music that I care a lot about and I care about [inaudible]. >> Carol Silverman: And that does widen audiences, so it has one positive thing. >> Female audience member: So what I see is that we have this kind of a public -- I mean, I don't really just think that is [inaudible], but there is this kind of public relations war going on, in a sense, between people who are perfectly happy to sell something and appropriate it without basically spending very much time thinking respectfully about where it comes from, and people who are trying to put some energy into that respectful way of doing it. And we don't necessarily a lot of the time hang out in the same places, although some of us try to be in multiple places so we kind of see what's going on. I'm kind of curious -- I've know you for some years -- >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. >> Female audience member: But I'm curious over the question of your life and Sani, you as well, like have you seen -- what have you seen in terms of forwarding that respectful approach that's been successful and what haven't. Like, you know, I mean it's not really a war. We all want be -- >> Carol Silverman: Right, yeah. >> Female audience member: -- you know, together. But -- >> Carol Silverman: Right. And certainly I'm not against the dissemination of Romani music and more people listening to it. But it would be nice if they were informed and they knew where Roma were involved at some point or another. I think that's important. But I would say in our -- you know, we do Balkan music and so on. In the early years we to have like "Gypsy" night at our camps. I mean, that -- we wouldn't have that now. We were ignorant. We just didn't know about the label and so on. Now things go along with explanations, Roma are involved, there's educational materials available. But on the -- but our scene may be actually different from some of the other scenes I'm talking about. So like I came across a brass band in Portland, Oregon. I'm from Oregon. Where the guy sells gold teeth during intermission, and puts fake gold teeth. I mean, first I saw him with fake gold teeth, and then the next time he was selling gold teeth. So he's like going in the other direction. So, in other words, just because we have our group that try to become more respectful, work with Roma, spread the education, that doesn't mean it has a kind of global effect. There's many different scenes and you have to look at them separately. >> Sani Rifati: Actually, I mean, you know, Carol is a -- with Larry and many other friends -- >> Female audience member: Yeah, yeah. >> Sani Rifati: -- through America. It's really the pioneers who introduce this kind of culture to Americans because people are really, completely misinformed. Everything is like completely like so much all with the Gypsy fantasy. >> Female audience Memeber: Right. >> Sani Rifati: And that really -- this is what we see, the outcome. >> Female audience member: Yeah, yeah. >> Sani Rifati: You know? >> Female audience member: Yeah. >> Sani Rifati: And for us, for example, we are trying still to educate people. For example, now in this -- one of the films she showed, the Gypsy fest, we tried really hard to -- Carol put really some proper wording and the organizer -- they just simply don't care because they're afraid that they're going to lose audience. >> Female audience member: Right. >> Sani Rifati: And for us is very important the educational aspect. >> Female Audience member: Yeah. >> Carol Silverman: Mm-hmm. >> Sani Rifati: And so there are some really lot of stuff, in a lot of schools -- >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. >> Sani Rifati: -- and institutions. And now the book-writers are contacting us, and -- >> Female audience member: So it's growing, slowly, slowly, slowly. >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. I would also just add that -- >> Sani Rifati: But -- hmm? >> Carol Silverman: I would also just add that Roma are extremely respectful of non-Roma who take the time to learn their music well, and learn about its history and its context, and maybe invite them to collaborate. It's -- that's the way it should be, I think. It's not like you shouldn't touch -- >> Sani Rifati: No. >> Carol Silverman: -- music. You're going to be called an appropriator. It's like -- figure out what your role is. >> Sani Rifati: Carol, we had the project in 2010 with a brass band in San Francisco. And now they stripped that band and they have one band for the marches and the other band is called [foreign words]. >> Carol Silverman: Which means in inspector of non-Roma. >> Sani Rifati: Yeah. >> Carol Silverman: So they took this Romani word for an outsider as their title. >> Sani Rifati: And they -- >> Carol Silverman: They're owning up to being outsiders, yeah. >> Sani Rifati: [Inaudible] you know? >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. >> Sani Rifati: And then they invited -- >> Carol Silverman: Okay. We have to stop. >> Sani Rifati: And they educate the audience. Now even the -- [ Inaudible Speaker ] Sani Rifati: -- now they literally force you not to use the word "Gypsy" anymore. >> Carol Silverman: Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah. So there are ramifications. >> Sani Rifati: Yeah. >> Carol Silverman: You can make a difference. That's, I think, my point, mm-hmm. >> Sani Rifati: And it's all these young kids are getting [inaudible] some information. >> Carol Silverman: Yeah. >> Nancy Groce: I want to thank you all for coming and, of course, thank Carol Silverman again for doing a terrific lecture. [ Applause ] >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at

See also


  1. ^ P.G., lxv, 1117.
  2. ^ Cotelier, "Monumenta eccles. Graeca", III, 392; P.G., LXXXVI, 34.
  3. ^ White, Karin (1999). "Metal-workers, agriculturists, acrobats, military-people and fortune-tellers: Roma (Gypsies) in and around the Byzantine empire". Golden Horn. 7 (2). Archived from the original on 2006-10-29. Retrieved 2007-08-26.
  4. ^ Bates, Karina. "A Brief History of the Rom". Archived from the original on 2007-08-10. Retrieved 2007-08-26.
  5. ^ "Book Reviews" (PDF). Population Studies. 48 (2): 365–372. July 1994. doi:10.1080/0032472031000147856.[permanent dead link]


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  • Ilse Rochow: Die Häresie der Athinganer im 8. und 9. Jahrhundert und die Frage ihres Fortlebens. In: Helga Köpstein, Friedhelm Winkelmann (eds.), Studien zum 8. und 9. Jahrhundert in Byzanz, Berlin 1983 (= Berliner Byzantinistische Arbeiten, 51), 163-178.
  • Paul Speck: Die vermeintliche Häresie der Athinganoi. In: Jahrbuch der Österreichischen Byzantinistik 47 (1997), 37-50.
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