Allan Gurganus

Transcription

>> Announcer: THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS A SPECIAL PRESENTATION OF THE BIG TEN NETWORK, PRODUCED IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA. >> SO, THAT'S COMING OUT. THAT'LL BE REAL NICE. WELCOME TO "CONVERSATIONS FROM THE IOWA WRITERS' WORKSHOP." I'M KECIA LYNN. ALLAN GURGANUS IS PROBABLY BEST KNOWN FOR HIS NOVEL "OLDEST LIVING CONFEDERATE WIDOW TELLS ALL." THIS WAS HIS 1989 DEBUT. HE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF TWO COLLECTIONS, "WHITE PEOPLE" AND "THE PRACTICAL HEART," AND ANOTHER NOVEL TITLED "PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS." HE WON A GUGGENHEIM FELLOWSHIP IN 2006. HE WAS A STUDENT OF AND IS A VISITING PROFESSOR AT THE IOWA WRITERS' WORKSHOP. ALLAN GURGANUS, WELCOME. >> THANK YOU. IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE. >> HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE BACK IN IOWA? >> IT'S SORT OF LIKE STEPPING INTO A WARM BATH IN A COLD SEASON. I LOVE IT. I DIDN'T EXPECT THAT IT WOULD BE AS CONSISTENT WITH MY LAST COUPLE OF EXPERIENCES, AS I FOUND IT. THE STUDENTS ARE VERY EXCITING TO ME -- VERY DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER BUT KIND TO EACH OTHER, WHICH I RESPOND TO. I LIKE THAT VERY MUCH. THE SETTING ITSELF IS MUCH IMPROVED FROM THE ENGLISH-PHILOSOPHY BUILDING WHERE WE USED TO SIT CROSS-LEGGED IN THE HALL WAITING TO BE TALKED TO. BUT IT'S REASSURING TO SEE THE PATTERN CONTINUE, TO SEE THE INFLUENCE THAT THE WORKSHOP HAS HAD, FOR GOOD OR BAD. I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF VERY BAD IMITATIONS OF IT OUT THERE IN THE WORLD. SOMETHING ABOUT THE INITIAL BELIEF IN THE INSTITUTION, THE ORIGINAL DESIGN -- WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT 1922, THE FIRST CREATIVE DISSERTATION, YOU REALIZE WHAT A PIONEER IN EDUCATION THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA TRULY IS. >> SEE, I REMEMBER HEARING ABOUT THE '70s, AND I'M GONNA TALK TO YOU ABOUT THAT IN A MINUTE, ACTUALLY, THAT THE IOWA WRITERS' WORKSHOP HAS GOTTEN MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF REVIEWS, GOOD AND BAD, HOW COMPETITIVE, BLOODTHIRSTY, ALL KINDS OF THINGS. BUT I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT -- WE CAN START WITH YOUR EXPERIENCE AT THE IOWA WRITERS' WORKSHOP. AND, ACTUALLY, I WANT US TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU CAME TO WRITING, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS A VERY INTERESTING STORY ABOUT THE TIME YOU SPENT ON THE U.S.S. YORKTOWN IN THE LATE '60s, DURING THE WAR? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> YEAH. >> YEAH, I WENT TO ART SCHOOL AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA FOR ONE YEAR, AND THEN I -- I WAS HAVING A GOOD TIME, BUT I JUST DIDN'T FEEL LIKE IT WAS MY REAL LIFE, YOU KNOW? YOU'RE WAITING TO BE BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER WHEN YOU'RE 18 YEARS OLD. IT HAS TO BE GIGANTIC TO GET YOUR ATTENTION. SO I VERY STUPIDLY STOPPED SCHOOL AT A TIME WHEN THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED THE DRAFT. AND AS A RESULT, I WAS TRIED FOR DRAFT EVASION 'CAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO GO IN-COUNTRY AND KILL PEOPLE OR, IN MY CASE, BE KILLED. I KNEW, KECIA, IMMEDIATELY, I ARRIVED IN THE COUNTRY, I WAS GONNA GET A BULLET AT THE AIRPORT WALKING DOWN THE RAMP. SO, I -- MY PARENTS WERE REPUBLICAN AND, LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN 1966, THOUGHT THAT THE WAR WAS A POLICING ACTION THAT WOULD BE OVER IN 15 MINUTES. >> MM-HMM. >> FAMOUS LAST WORDS. WE'VE SEEN THAT BEFORE. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> AND SO I WAS ON MY OWN, WRITING ESSAYS ABOUT PACIFISM, TRYING TO GET MY PREACHER TO TESTIFY FOR ME. AND THE OUTCOME OF THE TRIAL WAS THAT I COULD EITHER GO TO FEDERAL PRISON FOR 6 1/2 YEARS OR JOIN SOME BRANCH OF THE MILITARY. AND I JOINED THE NAVY BECAUSE I'D READ CONRAD AND MELVILLE, AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A NICE, CLEAN DEATH. THE FISH WOULD, YOU KNOW, LICK MY BONES, AND I WOULDN'T BE IN A DITCH WITH BAMBOO IN MY BACK. SO, AS A RESULT, I WAS NO LONGER A PAINTER. I WAS ON A SHIP WITH 4,000 OTHER GUYS, AND THERE WAS A LIBRARY ON THE SHIP, WHICH IS ABOUT AS BIG AS THIS ROOM. >> RIGHT. >> AND IT HAD BOOKS. AND I BECAME SO BORED THAT, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE, I READ BOOKS. AND, OF COURSE, AS A PAINTER, I WENT TO MUSEUMS, BUT I THOUGHT, "HOW COULD I REPLICATE THIS PAINTING?" AND I DID THE SAME THING WITH THESE BOOKS. THE BEAUTIFUL INNOCENCE OF YOUTH -- YOU DON'T KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT REALLY IS. IF WE KNEW HOW DIFFICULT LIFE IS, WE WOULD NEVER GET OUT OF BED. THE CRADLE WOULD HAVE MANY FAT, OLD PEOPLE IN IT. >> OH, ABSOLUTELY. >> AND SO I JUST STARTED IMITATING DICKENS, IMITATING JANE AUSTEN, AND IT BECAME A KIND OF OBSESSION, AND IT SAVED MY LIFE, PSYCHICALLY, 'CAUSE IT WAS A VERY STRESSFUL, DIFFICULT TIME. >> SURE. >> NO PRIVACY, NO DIGNITY. AND IT MADE ME UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, IN A SMALL WAY, WHAT IT WAS TO BE ENSLAVED, TO BE ON A SHIP AGAINST MY OWN WISHES AND PRINCIPLES IN THE SERVICE OF ECONOMIC FORCES BEYOND MY CONTROL. AND WRITING GAVE ME THAT MARGIN OF INSIGHT AND THE ABILITY TO SHAPE ONE'S OWN DESTINY AND TO SEE INTO ONE'S SELF AND TO ORGANIZE THE WORLD THAT I NEEDED, AND IT REALLY SAVED MY LIFE. SO, THAT WAS THE BEGINNING. >> THE TIME YOU SPENT AT IOWA HAPPENED TO BE IN THE '70s. YOU GRADUATED IN 1974? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> OKAY. AND YOU WERE THERE -- WELL, YOU WERE THERE WITH SOME GREAT TEACHERS, AND YOU WERE THERE WITH GREAT WRITERS, GREAT CLASSMATES, AS WELL. I WANTED YOU TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH YOUR TEACHERS STANLEY ELKIN AND, OF COURSE, JOHN CHEEVER. >> IT HAPPENED THAT... IN RESPONSE TO PERSONAL ILLNESS -- I MEAN, IT'S AN ODD, BEAUTIFUL THING THAT WORKSHOP DOES. IT'S SORT OF, "GIVE ME YOUR TIRED, YOUR POOR." >> RIGHT. >> THESE DISTINGUISHED WRITERS HAD A PARTICULAR PASS. I LATER REALIZED THAT STANLEY ELKIN HAD JUST BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH M.S. >> MM. >> AND THOUGH HE WAS ON SABBATICAL, HE CAME HERE TO TEACH TO EARN MONEY FOR HIS FAMILY BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT HE WAS GONNA BE DEBILITATED. AND THIS IS ALL THE STUFF THAT YOU SEE IN RETROSPECT. HE WAS VERY PHYSICALLY CLUMSY IN CLASS. HE WAS ALWAYS DROPPING THE CHALK OR THE CHANGE WAS FALLING OUT OF HIS POCKETS. WE THOUGHT HE WAS HILARIOUS. WE THOUGHT, IN A WAY, THAT IT WAS ALMOST LIKE A STAND-UP THING THAT HE WAS DOING, AND NOW I REALIZE HE WAS JUST ALREADY BEGINNING TO LOSE CONTROL. HE WAS A GENIUS TEACHER -- PROBABLY THE MOST CONSISTENTLY CORRECT CRITIC I'VE EVER MET, AND THE JOY AND TERROR OF HAVING YOUR WORK SUBMITTED TO SUCH A MIND WAS AMAZING, AND IT CLEARED THE CLASSROOM ALMOST IMMEDIATELY. WE WENT FROM, YOU KNOW, 25 TO 8. BUT WE WERE THE RIGHTEOUS REMNANT. >> YOU HUNG ON. >> ONLY THE ONES WHO HAD STRENGTH STAYED IN THERE WITH STANLEY. >> AND HE WAS A GREAT FORCE FOR THE GOOD AND A VERY FUNNY MAN AND A VERY ODD MAN IN A GREAT WAY. >> MM-HMM. >> CHEEVER WAS A YEAR YOUNGER THAN I AM NOW. I'M 62. HE HAD HAD A HUGE HEART ATTACK AND HAD BEEN UNABLE TO STOP DRINKING...AND SMOKING. HE WAS -- YOU KNOW, WHATEVER WAS AVAILABLE IN TERMS OF STIMULATION, THERE YOU WILL FIND HIM. BUT HE -- AND HIS FAMILY HAD ESSENTIALLY WASHED THEIR HANDS OF HIM, AND YOU CAN'T REALLY BLAME THEM. "YOU GOT A JOB AT IOWA? GO THERE. LIVE IN THE UNIVERSITY HOTEL AND SEE HOW LONG YOU LIVE WITHOUT US." AND SO HE WAS IN A VERY ISOLATED CIRCUMSTANCE, THOUGH HE WAS VERY LAUDED AND ACKNOWLEDGED. IT WAS AT A TIME WHEN HIS WORK WAS NOT THOUGHT AS HIGHLY OF AS IT IS NOW. EXPERIMENTAL FICTION WAS EVERYTHING. AND I FELT VERY -- VERY SORRY FOR HIM, IN A WAY, 'CAUSE I SAW WHAT IT MUST BE LIKE TO BE IN YOUR 60s AND ALONE AT THE IOWA HOUSE. HEAVEN FORBID. >> OH, YEAH. >> SO, CHEEVER CONDUCTED THE CLASS LIKE A COCKTAIL PARTY. IT WAS A LIGHT CONVERSATION WITH VERY BROAD NEW ENGLAND "A's." HE WOULD SAY, "THERE'S A CERTAIN KIND OF STORY THAT'S NO LONGER PERMISSIBLE TO WRITE -- THE STORY THAT BEGINS, 'IT WAS ONE OF THOSE MORNINGS WHEN PEOPLE SAT AROUND AND SAID, "I DRANK TOO MUCH LAST NIGHT."' NOW, KECIA, GIVE US AN EXAMPLE." >> [ LAUGHING ] OH, MY GOD. >> AND A LOT OF MY BRILLIANT MIDWESTERN CLASSMATES WERE TERRIFIED OF NOT ONLY HIM BUT OF THIS MODE OF ADDRESS. I HAD GONE TO SCHOOL IN THE SOUTH AND THE EAST, AND I WAS A TALKING GEMINI, SO I FELT RIGHT AT HOME. AND IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF, AGAIN, A GREAT FRIENDSHIP AND A GREAT LASTING CONNECTION. >> YOU ALSO HAD SOME REALLY INTERESTING CLASSMATES. YOU WERE THERE AT THE SAME TIME AS DENIS JOHNSON, RON HANSEN, T.C. BOYLE. WHAT WAS THAT LIKE? I MEAN, WE TALK ABOUT -- IN THE WORKSHOP, WE TALK ABOUT YOUR BEST READERS AND BEST FRIENDS AS YOU'RE STRUGGLING THROUGH, WHAT YOU CALL IN THE COLLECTION WORKSHOP THE IOWA WINTERS WORKSHOP. WHAT WAS THAT LIKE BEING IN THE COMPANY OF SUCH TALENTED WRITERS? >> WELL, OF COURSE, YOU DON'T KNOW AT THE TIME HOW RELATIVELY GOOD THEY ARE. JANE SMILEY WAS ALSO IN THAT CLASS AND RICHARD BAUSCH. IT'S AN AMAZING GROUP OF PEOPLE. IT DID SEEM LIKE A VERY EXCITING TIME, BUT, OF COURSE, I THINK IT ALWAYS DOES. AND WE WERE INCITING EACH OTHER TO OUR BEST GAME. I THINK IF YOU COULD HOLD YOUR OWN ON THE COURT WITH FEDERER FOR EVEN ONE SET, YOU WOULD PROBABLY PLAY THE BEST TENNIS YOU WILL EVER PLAY IN THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. AND THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT HAVING A PERSON IN THE ROOM WHO'S EXTREMELY GIFTED AND VERY COMMITTED, AND THAT'S -- I MEAN, THERE'S ALWAYS THIS DOUBLE ELEMENT. I LOOK AT MY STUDENTS NOW, AND I THINK, "THERE'S NOTHING STANDING IN THE WAY OF THEIR BEING AMAZING WRITERS AND MAKING A REAL CONTRIBUTION." >> BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE REALLY ARE THINGS STANDING IN THE WAY. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I TRY TO DO FOR MY PRESENT STUDENTS IS SAY, "WHAT IS HOLDING YOU BACK?" IF YOU ARE MARRIED TO A MAN OR A WOMAN WHO SAYS, "WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS IN THAT OTHER ROOM? I'M JEALOUS OF YOUR WORK," THEN YOU CAN GET UNMARRIED SO QUICKLY. AND I'M THE CRANKY OLD BACHELOR. AND I AIN'T LET NOTHING GET IN THE WAY OF MY WORK. I'M TELLING YOU. AND I'VE HAD SOME BEAUTIFUL OBSTACLES THAT I'VE THROWN THE HELL UNDER THE BUS. >> [ LAUGHING ] YEAH. >> BUT, YOU KNOW, I SAY TO THEM, "HAVING CHILDREN IS DIFFICULT." ALLAN'S FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL IS, "HOW MANY CHILDREN DO YOU WANT?" >> MM-HMM. >> "PUBLISH THAT MANY BOOKS FIRST AND THEN START HAVING THE BABIES. AND IF YOU CAN'T WAIT, MAYBE YOU SHOULD THINK ABOUT WHAT YOUR -- WHY YOU WANT TO DO THIS AND WHAT PARENTHOOD REALLY MEANS." AUTHORSHIP ALSO HAS ITS RIGHTS AND ITS POSITION OF IMPORTANCE IN YOUR LIFE. SO, FOR US, STARTING OUT, IT WAS AN AMAZING EXCITEMENT AND ADVENTURE. AND, FOR ME, IT'S BEEN VERY THRILLING TO SEE THE SUCCESS OF MY CLASSMATES. AND NOT COMPLETELY, BUT FOR THE MOST PART, ALL OF US ARE EXTREMELY HAPPY FOR EACH OTHER... >> THAT'S WONDERFUL. >> ...BECAUSE WE KNOW WHERE WE WERE. WE REMEMBER THE $60-A-MONTH APARTMENT AND... IT'S VERY POWERFUL TO OPEN ANY MAGAZINE AND YOU SEE THE NAMES OF YOUR CLASSMATE IN ALMOST EVERY MAGAZINE YOU OPEN. >> YEAH. >> SO, IT'S BEEN A GREAT EXPERIENCE. >> OUTSIDE OF IOWA CITY, AND WE HAVE PEOPLE COME HERE ALL THE TIME, AND THEY'RE ALWAYS AMAZED AT WHAT KIND OF COMMUNITY THIS IS -- RIGHT? -- THE SUPPORT YOU GET FOR WRITING AND FOR LITERATURE, WHEREAS, OUT IN THE WORLD, IT'S A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT. YOU HAVE TO FIND YOURSELF JUSTIFYING, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?" IT'S NICE TO BE ABLE TO COME TO A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE ARE SERIOUS ABOUT LITERATURE AND PEOPLE ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR WRITING. >> ABSOLUTELY. IT'S A GIVEN, AND NOT ONLY AT THE WORKSHOP AND THE UNIVERSITY BUT THE COMMUNITY. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> PRAIRIE LIGHTS HAS A KIND OF REFINING EFFECT ON THE COMMUNITY, AND THANK GOD IT'S STILL HERE. >> OH, YEAH. >> AND SO MANY AMAZING BOOK SHOPS LIKE IT HAVE DIED. SO, I RESPECT JAN AND HER STAFF SO MUCH FOR HOLDING THE STANDARD. BUT IT'S -- I THINK PART OF THE POWER OF THE PLACE IS ITS ISOLATION. YOU'D THINK THAT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY WOULD HAVE THE BEST CREATIVE-WRITING PROGRAM BECAUSE THEY'RE IN NEW YORK AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. >> THAT IS THE PROBLEM. >> THERE ARE SO MANY CHOICES AND THERE ARE SO MANY PARTIES AND SO MANY WAYS OF GETTING IN DRUG TROUBLE AND SEX TROUBLE AND... >> SHOPPING TROUBLE. >> ...SHOPPING TROUBLE. >> THAT'S MY DANGER. >> NOW WE'RE GETTING DOWN TO IT. >> YEAH. >> BUT I HAVEN'T BEEN MOVED TO SHOP ANYWHERE BUT THRIFT SHOPS HERE. YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT SOME -- YOU LIKE IT? >> YEAH, YEAH. >> SO, IT'S MOSTLY ABOUT THE WORK. AND IT'S MOVING TO SEE KIDS WHO WERE ADMITTED IN THIS MOST RECENT WAVE COMING TO SHOP THE SCHOOLS. AND YOU KNOW THAT THEY'RE GOING TO AUSTIN AND ANN ARBOR AND NEW YORK, AND THEY'RE BEING WINED AND DINED. AND IT'S VERY HARD TO EXPLAIN TO THEM AT A SO-SO MEXICAN RESTAURANT IN IOWA CITY WHY THIS IS THE PLACE. I SAID TO THE LAST GROUP -- I SAID, "I WISH I HAD A TALENT METER THAT WOULD REGISTER FOR YOU WHO WAS IN THIS CLASSROOM RIGHT NOW." 'CAUSE THESE KIDS ARE AMAZING. IT'S -- AND FOR ME, IT'S VERY MOVING. NOW I SEE WHAT CHEEVER AND ELKIN SAW IN ME WHEN I HAD A 29-INCH WAIST... >> [ CHUCKLES ] >> ...AND WAS A LITTLE SLIP OF A THING. AND I FEEL VERY PROTECTIVE OF THE KIDS IN THAT WAY. >> ANN PATCHETT WAS ONE OF YOUR STUDENTS, AND SHE WROTE IN A BOOK I HAVE CALLED "WHY I WRITE" -- SHE SAID, "I WRITE BECAUSE ALLAN GURGANUS TAUGHT ME TO." AND THIS WAS AT SARAH LAWRENCE, WHEN YOU TAUGHT THERE. AND SHE SAID IN HER ESSAY THAT YOU HAD THEM WRITE A STORY A WEEK. IS THAT RIGHT? >> IT'S TRUE. >> LIKE, HOW -- I'M IMAGINING THIS, 'CAUSE I TOOK FICTION CLASS AS AN UNDERGRAD. I DON'T KNOW IF I COULD HAVE DONE A STORY A WEEK. BUT YOU HAD A -- THERE WAS A METHOD TO THIS. >> THERE WAS A METHOD. FOR ONE THING -- AND THIS IS MY BEING A GLUTTON FOR PUNISHMENT -- I VOLUNTARILY TAUGHT TWICE A WEEK INSTEAD OF ONCE SO EVERYBODY COULD GET COVERED. ESPECIALLY ANN PATCHETT GIVES ME A HUGE AMOUNT OF CREDIT, WHICH IS TYPICAL OF WHAT A DEAR PERSON SHE IS. SHE WAS A BORN WRITER. SHE WAS BORN WITH A PEN IN HER HAND. AND SHE ARRIVED AS A FRESHMAN AT SARAH LAWRENCE ALREADY DISCIPLINED, ALREADY UNDERSTANDING HOW TO REVISE. AND HER PATH WAS TO SAY, "I CAN WRITE A STORY A WEEK, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? I WOULD RATHER WRITE ONE STORY OVER AND OVER EVERY WEEK UNTIL I HAVE MADE IT PERFECT." AND SHE DID THAT AS A FRESHMAN, AND SHE PUBLISHED IT IN THE PARIS REVIEW AND WON EVERY PRIZE IN THE WORLD. I MEAN, SHE WAS ALREADY LAUNCHED AS A SERIOUS WORKER. AND SHE WOULD SAY, "WHAT? YOU SAY YOU LIKE EVERY SENTENCE NOW AFTER A YEAR OF WORKING ON ONE STORY, AND SUDDENLY YOU SAY, 'WELL, THIS IS A LITTLE LESS GOOD THAN THE ONE BESIDE IT.'" >> RIGHT. >> AND SO SHE BROUGHT EVERY SENTENCE UP TO THAT LEVEL. AND SO I FEEL -- YOU KNOW, I HAVE MY LIST OF MY FORMER STUDENTS, WHICH IS A KIND OF WHO'S WHO OF WHO'S WRITING NOW, WHO'S REALLY INTERESTING NOW, AND THEY'RE ALL RADICALLY DIFFERENT VOICES. ELIZABETH McCRACKEN, WHOM I TAUGHT AT IOWA 20 YEARS AGO, IS NOW HEAD OF THE CREATIVE-WRITING DEPARTMENT AT UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS. SO, WE'RE GOING FORTH AND MULTIPLYING, AND IT'S A VERY -- IT'S VERY EXCITING TO THINK OF MY POSITION, FROM GRACE PALEY TO ELKIN TO CHEEVER, AND I SAY TO MY STUDENTS HERE, ON THE FIRST DAY, "THIS IS YOUR LINEAGE." >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> "WE HAVE FAMILY LINEAGE, AND WE HAVE WRITER LINEAGE, AND I WANT TO BE ABLE TO TELL PEOPLE THAT YOU WERE MY STUDENTS, AND I WANT YOU TO BE ABLE TO TELL PEOPLE THAT I WAS YOUR TEACHER." AND I TAKE IT VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY. >> YEAH, AND IT'S, AGAIN, THAT KIND OF VALIDATION THAT CAN BE HARD TO GET. PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE VALUE OF GRADUATE PROGRAMS, FOR EXAMPLE, AND WHETHER THESE ARE VALUABLE. THEY'VE, OF COURSE, PROLIFERATED IN THE LAST 30 YEARS OR SO, BUT IN THE HANDS OF A GOOD TEACHER, AS YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU WERE HERE AT IOWA, IT CAN REALLY HELP A WRITER GROW AND DEVELOP. >> NO QUESTION. >> YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THE THINGS YOU TELL YOUR STUDENTS. DO YOU THINK YOUR PHILOSOPHY OF TEACHING HAS CHANGED AT ALL OVER THE YEARS, I MEAN, AND THEN WITH UNDERGRADUATE VERSUS GRADUATE, DIFFERENT SCHOOLS, DIFFERENT -- AS YOU HAVE LEARNED AND GROWN AS A WRITER? >> I THINK I'M A LITTLE LESS HARD ON THE STUDENTS THAN I USED TO BE, WHICH SEEMS LIKE A SLIDING BACKWARDS. BUT WHAT YOU REALIZE, IN FICTION ESPECIALLY, IS THAT THE GREAT WORK THAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO IS YEARS AHEAD. AND THIS IS ONE OF THE PARADOXES OF BEING A NOVELIST IS A NOVELIST IS BORN AT 40. >> RIGHT. I SAW THAT QUOTE. IT'S A GREAT QUOTE. >> AND IT'S REALLY TRUE. I MEAN, THE QUALIFICATIONS FOR BEING A NOVELIST ARE YOU HAVE TO HAVE HAD YOUR HEART BROKEN AT LEAST THREE TIMES IN THREE DIFFERENT SITUATIONS AND SURVIVED IT, AND I DON'T WANT TO SAY YOU HAVE TO HAVE BROKEN A FEW YOURSELF, BUT WE'VE ALL DONE THAT ACCIDENTALLY AND ON PURPOSE. AND YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO DIE. AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS TO HELP SOMEBODY ELSE DIE. AND IT SOUNDS LIKE A BLOODSHED BOX SCORE THAT NOBODY WANTS TO RACK UP, BUT THE FACT IS, YOU KNOW... THE AIDS EPIDEMIC WAS MY EPID-- MY EDUCATION AS A NOVELIST. I HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF 85-YEAR-OLDS WHEN I WAS IN MY EARLY 30s. AND I WENT TO FUNERALS FOUR DAYS A WEEK. AND IT WAS A HORRIBLE TIME, AND I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SURVIVE. BUT I CAME OUT OF THE REFINER'S FIRE A VERY DIFFERENT PERSON. AND BEING WITH MY PARENTS WHEN THEY EACH DIED WAS A TRANSCENDENT EXPERIENCE FOR ME. AND IT'S NOT THAT I THINK EVERY WRITER HAS TO HAVE EXACTLY THOSE EXPERIENCES. I JUST THINK BEING ALIVE ON THE SURFACE OF THE PLANET FOR FOUR DECADES IS JUST ENOUGH TIME TO BEGIN TO NOTICE WHAT'S AROUND YOU AND TO SEE YOUR SPIRITUAL NATURE AND YOUR COMMUNAL NATURE AND TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT YOUR POSITION IN RELATION TO OTHER PEOPLE. AND 18, 19, 21, IT'S A VERY EGOTISTICAL AGE, AND IT SHOULD BE. IT'S THE AGE OF DISCOVERY. YOU DON'T EXPECT THE BABY TO SAY, "AND HOW ARE YOU, YOU WHO ARE WARMING MY MILK BOTTLES?" YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE, "I'M HUNGRY. GIVE IT TO ME." >> MM-HMM. >> SOMETHING DEEPER AND MORE DECENT AND MORE HARROWING AND MORE PARTAKING OF WISDOM COMES LATER IN LIFE. BUT I'M PREPARING THE STUDENTS, TECHNICALLY, WITH AN APPARATUS THAT WILL ACCOMMODATE THAT EXPERIENCE, THAT LARGER SET OF EVENTS, WHEN IT REACHES THEM, AS IT INEVITABLY WILL. >> I CAN'T BELIEVE WE ARE ALREADY OUT OF TIME. >> OH, NO! WE JUST GOT STARTED. >> WE JUST GOT STARTED. I DIDN'T GET TO TALK ABOUT ALL THIS OTHER STUFF. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY. >> IT WAS A PLEASURE. >> ALLAN GURGANUS' MOST FAMOUS NOVEL IS "OLDEST LIVING CONFEDERATE WIDOW TELLS ALL." I'M KECIA LYNN. THANKS FOR WATCHING "CONVERSATIONS FROM THE IOWA WRITERS' WORKSHOP." -- Captions by VITAC -- www.vitac.com >> Announcer: THE PRECEDING PROGRAM WAS PRODUCED BY THE UNIVERSITY OF IOWA IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE BIG TEN NETWORK.