1966 United States Senate special election in Virginia

Transcription

BUMPERS WAS ELECTED GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS IN 1970 AND SERVED TWO TERMS. A SURVEY OF IT WAS NEVER TALKED ABOUT, ARKANSAS HISTORIANS AND PE WPOERE DULIMPTIING CATHL EISCR8 RANKED SEWAUMGE IPENTRSO ATHS E ARKATR OF TH WE HE20RETHVE CR THEYEN O DUMP IT. SO I BEGAN TO TALK AND TH E ON LY ERABNOOURT THAT AND NOBODY ELSE OFT THETH COSE WEENRETU TRYHINT MERITED A RATING OF GREAT. REALLY RESONATED WITH PEOPLE. HE WAS E LECT I ED TSTO ARTED THOUT E WITHUNIT NASTME RECOGESNI STIONEN, E SUIS SE RVED F ORAT 2 4%. YEARANS.D SLOWLY B, THE STRANGEST THING ABOUT THAT I'M ERNIE DUMAS. WELCOME TO CAMPAIGN WAS , MEN THANATD WO OMEF N THOFE I: DALE BUMPERS. AS PART OF AN CANDIDATES, I WAS THE ONLY CANDIDATE THAT MOVED U NOONTGOING ORAL HISTORY PROJET IN COOPERATION WITH THE ONE SOUL, E UNPUIVRCERELSIL OAND F HAARYS IN FAYETTEVILLE, AETN HAS MCCLERKIN STARTED OUT AT 14 CONDUCTED EXTENSIVE INTERVIEWS WITH SENATOR BUMPERS ON HIS LIFE AND CA RE ER, D WE'REAECH AND ON TH E FR PRESAYENTI BNG PORTIEFONS OROF E INTERVIEWS TO YOU THE VIEWER IN THE ELECTION ON TUESDAY, HAYES A THREE PART SERIES. WAS AT 11 AND JOE WAS STILL IN PART ONE, BUMPERS DISCUSSES AT 14. AND I MOVED FROM THAT IGGRINOWALING 4UP% ITON CHAR AND HIS LIFE BEFORE POLITICS. AND THEN OF COURSE THE NIGHT IN PART TWO, WE'LL DISCUSS HIS YEARS AS GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS AND HIS HISTORIC RACE AGAINST BILL FULBRIGHT FOR THE SENA TE I 74OF. THE ELECTION I GOT 21 PERCENT OF THE VOTE AND THAT INWA THES THIRDENOUGH TROO AMGE RUNOFF AGAINST FAUBUS. >>WE D'LL umasDI: SCHEUS WS HIAS AGAINST JOE PURCELL I THINK IN THE SEN ATE D INHIS TRETIHEREME RNTUNOFF AN FROM POLITICS. WE HOPE YOU'LL HE'S CONFRONTED WITH YOU. AND I THIN UK HIS S FOSTR RATEGYAL WLT OF THIS VERY PERSONAL AND CA ND ID YOU AS WHAT THEY CALL A FLAMING RECOLLECTION BY ONE OF ARKANSAS' MEN OF DISTINCTION: LIBERAL. THAT W AS T HE T ERDAM LE BUMPERSTHEY. USED. IN TWO WEEKS THEY WERE GOING TO TELL THE PEOPLE OF ARKANSAS WHO YOU WERE. YOU WERE A FLAMING LIBERAL. HE ALSO USED BUSSING TO ACHIEVE DESEGREGATION IN THE RACE AS WELL. >> Bumpers: HE PLAYED THAT, I REMEMBER HE WAS IN HEBER SPRINGS WHICH I DON'T THINK HAD A SINGLE BLACK IN THE COUNTY, MAYBE A FEW, BUT NO BLACKS TO SPEAK OF IN CLEBURNE COUNTY. AND HE TOLD THEM "IF DALE BUMPERS IS ELECTED, YOU CAN PLAN ON STUDENTS BEING BUSSED FROM LITTLE ROCK TO HEBER >> Ernie Dumas: SENATOR, SPLERIT'NGS START S OFTOF WI INR THE FUNDAMENTALS. WHHOEROLE S.AN" D AND WHYOEN WUS AND YOUR PARENTS? THE SORT OF THING THAT CAN HAV E >> Dale Bumpers: WELL I WAS BORN ON AUGUST 12TH, 1925 A DEVASTATING IMPACT. BUSSING EXTRIN CEMHAELRLESY TON,UN ARKAF COURSEAND HE WAS SUGGESTING THAT I WAS GOING TO INTEGRATE AND THE EARLIEST EVERY TOTALLY WHITE SCHOOL IN THE STATE B MEMORYBU I HSSAVE ABINOUT THE SS OUOF T HE D CHARLESTON WAS PROBABLY IN THE TO GOD KNOWS WHE RE FIRST OR SECOND GRADE WHEN I COULD READ NUMBERS. >> Dumas: AS KIND OF A LAST DITCH DESPERATE EFFORT I THINK, BUT THE CITY LIMIT SIGN SAID CHARLESTON, POPULATION 851. RIGHT AT THE END OF THE CAMP AIGN AND I USED TO MAKE JOKES ABOUT THE WEEKEND BEFORE THE RUNOFF ELECTION, FAUBUS ANNOUNCES HE IS CHARLESTON COULDN'T GROW GOING TO CALL A PRESS BECAUSE EVERY TIME A BABY WA S CONFERENCE A BO HRN SOME MAN E HAIS GOID TO E VE A BWNLO. BUBUWESTER, OVER THE ANNOUNCEMENT TO MAKE. AND I THINK EVERYBODY WAS GREW BUT IT WAS A VERY, BY THE TIME I WAS OF THE AG ON PINS AND NEEDLES WAITING FOR THIS BLOCKBUSTER ANNOUNCEMEN T. RECOLLECTION, AGE OF MEMORY WHICH WAS WHAT? >> Bumpers: FAUBUS SAID HE HAD A STORY THAT WOULD TURN THIS WHERE I CAN THINK BACK NOW AND STATE UPSIDE DOWN. AND WE WERE DISCUSS WITH YOU WHAT KIND OF TERRIFIED. AND HE WAS GOING TO TOWN CHARLESTON WAS, THE DE PR ES SIHOONLD A PRE HADSS SONETFE IRY MORNING OUIN OURNC HE OME WHWEAT D ITIDE WAS. WE SENT ED LESTER, PROMINENT LI TT ELOCK ECTRLAICWYITERY; WE DIDN'E TO ATTEND FAUBUS' PRES S RUNNING WATER. WE DIDN'T HAVE PAVED STREETS, WE DIDN'T HAVE CONFERENCE AND ED WAS TO CALL ME OR ONE OF MY AIDES THE MINUTE INDOOR PLUMBING, WE DIDN'T HAVE WE KNEW WHAT THE BLOCKBUSTER ANYTHING. MY DAD'S NAME WAS WI IAWAM S. AND I'FUM S. BU TT HN ADULT IT CHA NGED O BILLGR, OUSO HNDEBREAKING CERN YS BILL BUMPERS. MY MOTHER DOWN AT MALVERN AND WH VEWARS LATTIE L-A-T-T-I-E, LATTE MY AS.IDE WAS E'S CATHME UE P OD I'VE EVER KNOWN IN MY LIFE CA EDWH AO HANDD THAT HER NAME E AT KNOW WHERE IT CAME FROM. WHEN THEY GOT MARRIED EYFA MUBOVUSED ANNOUNCED THIS MO RN IN TO A FORTY-ACRE HILLTOP FARM. THAT IF HE IS ELECTED GOVERN JUST A POOR FARM AND T HE Y GR HE WILL BE ASSASSINATED WITHIN A FEW THINGS. THEIR FIRST CHILD WAS A SON NAMED RAYMOND. AND SIX MONTHS. OF COURSE THE WHEN RAYMOND WAS THREE YEARS SUGGESTION IS THAT IF HE'S OLD HE GOT INTO TH E GARDEN ANDELECTED THE LIBERALS WHO FAR ATE SOME ROTTEN WATERMELON INTEGRATION AND ALL THOSE WILD- AND CREATED A TERRIBLE CASE OF EYED SCHEMES WILL KILL HIM OUT DYSENTERY. AND NOBODY KNEW, OF VENGEANCE FOR D EATI NG . THERE WERE NO DOCTORS REALLY F NOTE AND NOBODY KNEW WHAT TO DO IT WILL BE A VENGEANCE KILLING. FOR THIS. IT WAS OUT OF CONTROL AND ON THE FOURTH DAY HE DIED. HE SAID, "THAT'S THE ONLY THING MY SISTER WAS ABOUT, MAYBE SIX I CAN FIGURE. HE DIDN'T SAY THAT MONTHS OLD AT THE TIME. AND HE MAY HAVE SOME OTHER IDEA IN MIND." BY THIS TIME >> Dumas: MAGGIE. I'M ON MY WAY TO PINE BLUFF TO >> Bumpers: MAGGIE. MARGARET, THAT'S ALL WE EVER, WE NEVER KNEWE ANYTHROCK IG ANBUD, NT MN UNTIL SHE LEFT HOME. BELT RAILROAD PICNIC AND ALL >> Dumas: I THINK YOU KIND OF CR TH TOSHAE OLT D EXPERARIILCERO S YOUR FAMILY'S DECISION TO MOVE WERE FOR ORVAL FAUBUS. I GOT TO CHARLESTON. UP AND I SAID, "I KNOW THAT MOumpeST Ors: THF TRUTYOU AROF E FOR MAORTTVAERL WASFA MUBEDUSIO CHARLESTON WASN'T MUCH BETTER THAN IT WAS ON THE MOUNTAIN TELL YOU T HA HABUVE AT NSHE THOUGHT IT WAS. E TOLD HIM "I'M NOT GONG TO STAY OPPORT UN ITY TO ONE HIS S MOUNLIINFETO."P AND E BABIES ONLY TO WATCH THEM DIE." >> Dumas: SO YOUR NEXT B THERAND I WENT THROUGH THE PRESS CONFERENCE. I SAID, "HE ANNOUNCED THIS MORNING THAT IF WAS BORN, CAROL RNHE I AFTS ERELECTED WITHIN SIS YOU MOVED TO CHA ESORTO SN?IXTY DAYS," I FORGET H IT WAS, "HE WILL BE ASSASSINATED. THAT IS IF HE'S >>Bumpers: THA ELECTES D. RIGHT.SO YOU CAN H P >>DumaSAs: ANDVE HE'S WHAT, FR YEARS OLDER ANHI YS LIOUFE? BY VOTING FOR M >>Bumpers: HE'S ALMOST FOUR, LACKING ABOUT THREE MONTHS, IF I'M ELECTED, HE'LL HAVE FOUR YEARS OLDER THAN I AM. TO F>> DumR.as YOU: CAN SWHAVE, HIS LIFE." SO EVEN ALL THOSE WHERE DID THE BUMPERS FAMILY PEOPLE WHO WERE FOR FAUBUS STAND IN THE ECONOMIC AND BEGAN TO LAUGH AND I T WA KISONDCIAL HIERARCHY OF CHARLE STON? OF UPROARIOUSLY FUNNY. AND YOU >> Bumpers: THERE WERE A FEW PE KNLEOW I, N TOFAUBWNUS GOT W UPE AFFLUENT, TH S,AND THEHE NEVER ALLUDED TO T BANKER, PEOPLE L IK E THATEI. THER BEFORE OR AFTER I , HE NEVER ALLUDED TO THAT PRE SS BUT MY FATHER WORKED AS A CONFERENCE HE'D HELD THAT CLER FIRSTMO IRNN INA G WITH THAGRTS BIG BOMB ANNOUNCEMENT. AND LATER IN THE STORE, HARDWARE AND FURNITURE STORE >> Dumas: HE HAD ENTERED WHICH HE WOULD OWN. THA T HE THNDE RACE WITH ONLY 1% NAME RECOGNITION AND BY THE FIRST HIS PARTNER WOULD OWN. BUT HE PR ALF WEE STAT TO E WORK IN STA ID DIDN'T KNO W WHO HE WFUASRNIT. URE STORE ANDA BUT IN THE RUNOFF AGAINST FUNERAL HOME. ALL HARDWARE STORORVA HADL FFAUNUBUSERAL, S SOCICHATOSED WE ITH DATHEM BLEAG RGTHINOS. E HDAYSE . WAS READYE WINTHROP ROCKEFE ER IN >>TH DEumas: WHY WAS THAT? >> Bumpers: EL ITGE THINENKL IT'ELSECTION THAA LL . MOSTLY BECAUSE THEY BUIL THAT'S WHERE WE'LL BEGIN OUR CASKETS. HARDWARE STORES WERE CO NV TIJUONST NEXT TI SME IORN T PAOL , LI KE TWO OF MEN AND WOMEN OF DISTINCTION: DALE BUMPERS. I' M LUMBER YARDS WOULD BE. TH E ERNIE DUMAS. THANKS FOR CASKETS WOULD ACTUALLY BE BUILT THERE. BUT W WATCN ITHING C. OMES TO THE ECONOMICS OF IT, I THINK I WOULD HAVE TO SAY WE WERE BETTER OFF THAN MOST. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT WAS RELATIVE, BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN EVERYBODY WAS POOR. AS I'VE SAID, THERE WAS NO SNOB VALUE IN BEING POOR BECAUSE EVERYBODY WAS POOR. >> Dumas: YOUR FATHER GOT INTERESTED IN POLITICS AND I GUESS THAT'S THE SOURCE OF YOUR INTEREST IN POLITICS. >> Bumpers: IT IS. >>TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE MEN AND WO ME N ON SER>> DIEumas: INSPSIRED B Y YOUR VISIT OUR WEBS IT FATHER. W.AE>>TN Bum.OpeRGrs: MY FATHERD THIS PROGR AM W ST MROADNGE LYPO ISSIBN THLEIS E BELIEVED THAT WE SHOULD GO INTO POLITICS. HE TOLD US EARLY ON THAT POLITICS WAS BLBY A GERANT FROM THE ELECTRIC PROFESSION. AND HE SAID IT OVER COOPERATIVES OF ARKANSAS: YOUR AND OVER T O USLO. CAL AENNDER AGY PT ARTE DINNER TABLE WE'D TALK POLITICS WE'D TALK ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE CITY, WE'D TALK ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THE STATE LEVEL, WE'D TALK ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL AND SOMETIMES INTERNATIONAL. IF A POLITICIAN CAME THROUGH TOWN AND SPOKE ON THE COURTHOUSE LAWN, HE EXPECTED US TO BE THERE. AND WE'D DISCUSS THAT POLITICIAN'S SPEECH THAT NIGHT AT THE DINNER TABLE. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY OTHER FAMILY IN THE CITY, IN THE TOWN THAT WERE AS WIRED POLITICALLY AS WE WERE. IT WAS JUST A THING IN OUR HOUSEHOLD. >> Dumas: HE TOOK YOU TO BOONEVILLE TO SEE ROOSEVELT. >> Bumpers: YES, THAT'S RIGHT. >> Dumas: THAT WAS IN '36? >> Bumpers: THAT WAS IN '38. >> Dumas: '38? HATTIE CARRAWAY WAS RUNNING FOR REELECTION FOR THE U.S. SENATE. HE WAS I GUESS THERE TO ENDORSE, TO SUPPORT HATTIE CARRAWAY? >> Bumpers: THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE TRIP. AND SO ROOSEVELT WAS ON THAT TRAIN AND HE WAS GOING TO STOP IN BOONEVILLE. AND SO THAT BECAME A BIG ISSUE IN OUR HOUSE. SO HE TOOK CAROL AND ME TO BOONEVILLE TO SEE THE PRESIDENT. I WAS TWELVE YEARS OLD. AND WHEN HE CAME OUT ON THE BACK OF THAT TRAIN, YOU KNOW, IT WAS JUST GOD-LIKE. I HAD MORE GOOSE BUMPS ON ME THAN I'VE EVER HAD IN MY LIFE. I JUST COULD NOT BELIEVE THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND ESPECIALLY FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF US. AND IT WAS A MOMENTOUS OCCASION BUT WHEN HE CAME OUT OF THE RAILROAD CAR ONTO THE PLATFORM, HE WAS OBVIOUSLY HOLDING ON TO THE ARM OF HIS SON JAMES. AND I CAN REMEMBER VERY WELL TUGGING ON MY FATHER'S ARM AND SAYING, "DAD, WHAT'S WRONG WITH HIM?" I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH HIM. AND HE SAID, "I'LL TELL YOU LATER." AND SO ON THE WAY HOME HE SAYS, "NOW BOYS LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING. FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT HAD POLIO WHEN HE WAS 39 YEARS OLD AND HE CAN'T WALK. HE HAS TWELVE POUNDS OF STEEL BRACES ON HIS LEGS." AND HE SAID, "IF FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT CAN'T EVEN WALK AND HAS TO CARRY TWELVE POUNDS OF STEEL ON HIS LEGS, YOU BOYS HAVE GOOD MINDS AND GOOD BODIES. THERE IS NO REASON WHY YOU CAN'T BE PRESIDENT." AND I'VE SAID A LOT OF TIMES FOR MY FATHER TO SAY THAT, THAT WAS TANTAMOUNT TO BEING NOMINATED. >> Dumas: IN 1941 THE JAPANESE BOMBED PEARL HARBOR AND AMERICA WENT TO WAR. DALE WAS ATTENDING CHARLESTON HIGH SCHOOL AT THE TIME. WHEN HE GRADUATED, HE BRIEFLY ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS AT FAYETTEVILLE BEFORE BEING DRAFTED INTO THE MARINES. WHEN THE WAR ENDED DALE RETURNED TO FAYETTEVILLE AND COMPLETED HIS UNDERGRADUATE STUDIES. HE THEN ENTERED NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY IN CHICAGO TO STUDY LAW. >> Bumpers: MY FATHER WANTING ME TO BE A LAWYER; HE WANTED MY BROTHER AND ME TO BOTH BE LAWYERS, THERE WAS NEVER ANY MISTAKING ABOUT WHAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE. AND THE REASON MY FATHER WANTED US TO BE LAWYERS WAS BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THAT WAS THE BEST BACKGROUND TO GO INTO POLITICS. >> Dumas: HOW DID IT HAPPEN THAT YOU GO TO NORTHWESTERN? WHY DID YOU CHOOSE NORTHWESTERN? >> Bumpers: I REALIZED IF I WERE GOING TO HAVE A POLITICAL CAREER, I KNEW NOTHING ABOUT URBAN LIFE. I WAS JUST A COUNTRY BOY. AND I WANTED TO KNOW MORE ABOUT URBAN POLITICS; I WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT CITY LIFE. OF COURSE IN THE RECESSES OF MY MIND I HAD THE PRESIDENCY IN MIND AND I KNEW YOU COULDN'T BE PRESIDENT, CERTAINLY, UNLESS YOU KNEW SOMETHING ABOUT CITY LIFE AND I KNEW NOTHING. THAT'S REALLY THE REASON I CHOSE CHICAGO. AND OF COURSE CHICAGO POLITICS WAS UNIQUE. >> Dumas: IN 1949, WHILE HE WAS ATTENDING NORTHWESTERN, HIS MOTHER AND FATHER WERE KILLED IN A CAR WRECK. >>Bumpers: THIS WAS A ROAD WHERE I-40 IS NOW. BUT BACK THEN IT WAS A FAIRLY NARROW TWO-LANE HIGHWAY. AND SO THERE WAS A LITTLE HILL, A CREST AND DAD WAS GOING UP THE CREST AND AS HE GOT TO THE TOP OF THE CREST HERE COMES THIS ROARING DRUNK ON HIS SIDE OF THE ROAD. TOTALLY ON DAD'S SIDE OF THE ROAD. AND DAD DID WHAT I GUESS ANYBODY WOULD DO. HE PULLEDLEFT BECAUSE THE DRUNK WAS IN HIS LANE AND AS DRUNKS ALMOST INVARIABLYDO PULLED BACK RIGHT, SO THEY HIT HEAD ON. AND MY MOTHER LIVED A COUPLE OF DAYS AND MY FATHER LIVED A WEEK. SO THAT WAS AN UNBELIEVABLY TRAUMATIC TIME. I HAVE A TOUGH TIME TALKING ABOUT THAT. >>Dumas: LATER THAT SAME YEAR, DALE MARRIED HIS HIGH SCHOOL SWEETHEART BETTY FLANAGAN. HE FINISHED HIS LAW DEGREE AND THEN RETURNED TO CHARLESTON. IN 1951 HE ACQUIRED THE HARDWARE STORE THAT HAD BELONGED TO HIS FATHER AND OPENED HIS FIRST LAW PRACTICE IN THE BACK OF THE STORE. >> Bumpers: I PRACTICED LAW FROM THAT LITTLE CUBICLE IN THE BACK OF THAT HARDWARE STORE FOR TWO YEARS. AND I BELIEVE MY GROSS INCOME THE FIRST YEAR WAS LIKE $64.00. >> Dumas: YOUR GROSS INCOME FROM YOUR LAW PRACTICE WAS $64.00. >> Bumpers: GROSS INCOME FROM MY LAW PRACTICE WAS $64.00. >> Dumas: DO YOU REMEMBER YOUR FIRST CASE? >> Bumpers: WELL I REMEMBER MY FIRST FEE. THIS OLD GEEZER CAME IN AND WANTED ME, HE WAS SELLING A FARM OR SOMETHING, A HOUSE. AND HE WANTED ME TO DRAW UP A DEED. AND I SAID FINE, I'M IN BUSINESS, I'M GETTING READY TO MAKE MY FIRST FEE. SO HE CAME BACK, I DID THE DEED FOR HIM, NO TITLE EXAMINATION, NOTHING, JUS A DEED, JUST A WARRANTY DEED. AND HE CAME BACK THE NEXT DAY AND I HANDED IT TO HIM AND HE SAID "HOW MUCH DO I OWE YOU?" I SAID, "FIVE DOLLARS." HE JUST WENT BALLISTIC. "FIVE DOLLARS! IT AIN'T NOTHIN' BUT A BUNCH OF WRITIN'!" I THOUGHT I WAS GOING, I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE A FISTFIGHT OVER THAT. BUT I FINALLY MADE HIM PAY ME THE FIVE BUCKS. >> Dumas: YOU MADE $64.00 FOR THE TWELVE MONTHS. >> Bumpers: THE NEXT YEAR, I THINK I GROSSED ABOUT TWICE THAT MUCH. >> Dumas: 120 DOLLARS. >> Bumpers: AND BY THAT TIME, I DECIDED I NEEDED TO MOVE MY OFFICE. I CAN REMEMBER TALKING TO PEOPLE AND YOU KNOW, MAYBE FOUR FEET AWAY SOME GUY IS MEASURING, WEIGHING UP NAILS OR MEASURING BOLTS, OR WHATEVER YOU KNOW AND I'M SITTING HERE TALKING TO SOMEBODY ABOUT THEIR TROUBLES. >> Dumas: WAS THERE A PROBLEM IN A SMALL TOWN WHERE YOU GREW UP AND KNEW EVERYBODY, AND EVERYBODY KNEW YOU AS LITTLE DALE BUMPERS, WAS THERE A PROBLEM PRACTICING LAW AND GETTING PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE OF YOU AS A LAWYER? >> Bumpers: OH YEAH, THAT WAS THE BIGGEST PART. I DON'T RECOMMEND THAT TO ANYBODY WHO GREW UP IN A SMALL TOWN. I WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO PRACTICE. PEOPLE WHO KNEW ME ALL MY LIFE AND WATCHED ME GROW UP, THEY'D COME IN AND SAY "AIN'T YOU A SORT OF A LAWYER?" WELL, IN TRUTH THAT'S WHAT I WAS. I HEARD THAT AIN'T YOU A SORT OF A LAWYER I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES. >> Dumas: THIS WAS IN THE 1950'S. THE SUPREME COURT DECISION IN BROWN VS. THE BOARD OF EDUCATION REQUIRING THE DESEGREGATION OF SCHOOLS IN THE SOUTH CAME ALONG IN 1954. >> Bumpers: MAY OF '54. >> Dumas: MAY OF '54. YOU WERE NOT OFFICIALLY THE ATTORNEY FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD AND YOU WERE NOT ON THE SCHOOL BOARD AT THAT TIME. >> Bumpers: THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. >> Dumas: BUT WHEN THAT DECISION CAME DOWN THERE WAS A DECISION BY CHARLESTON TO DESEGREGATE AND I THINK YOU HAD ADVISED THEM TO DO THAT. TELL ME HOW THAT HAPPENED. >> Bumpers: I TOLD THE SUPERINTENDENT WOODY HAYNES, WHO OUGHT TO BE IN THE HISTORY BOOKS OF THIS STATE, WOODY CAME TO SEE ME AND HE WANTED TO INTEGRATE. AND HE THOUGHT THE BOARD WANTED TO INTEGRATE. I SAID, "WOODY, YOU CAN DO IT NOW OR YOU CAN DO IT LATER, BUT YOU AREGOING TO HAVE TO DO IT AND I THINK IT IS INFINITELY PREFERABLE AND TO OUR ADVANTAGE TO DO IT NOW." IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME THAT EVERYBODY IN THE SOUTH WASN'T GOING TO START AT LEAST GOING TO MAKE AN EFFORT TO INTEGRATE THEIR SCHOOLS. AND SO, THE SCHOOL BOARD, I'M SKIPPING A LOT OF THE STORY ERNIE, BUT IT WAS ABOUT JULY BEFORE SCHOOL WAS TO START THAT AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER, THE SCHOOL BOARD VOTED TO INTEGRATE THE ELEMENTARY AND HIGH SCHOOL THAT FALL. OF THE ELEVEN CONFEDERATE STATES, WE WERE THE FIRST AND ONE OF ONLY TWO, THE OTHER ONE BEING FAYETTEVILLE, TO INTEGRATE IN 1954 AFTER THE BROWN DECISION WAS ENTERED. AND IF YOU RECALL, THE BROWN DECISION SAID THIS ORDER WILL BE IMPLEMENTED WITH ALL DELIBERATE SPEED. THAT'S THE WORDS THE SUPREME COURT USED. ALL DELIBERATE SPEED. YET ALL ACROSS THE SOUTH, PEOPLE WERE LACKADAISICAL ABOUT IT, FIRST THEY WERE TERRIBLY UPSET, BUT NOBODY MADE A MOVE TO COMPLY WITH AN ORDER THE COURT SAID SHOULD BE COMPLIED WITH ALL DELIBERATE SPEED. WE DID. I BELIEVE THERE WERE THREE SCHOOLS IN ARKANSAS, I THINK HOXIE WAS ONE, SHERIDAN WAS ONE AND I FORGET WHO THE THIRD ONE WAS, VOTED TO INTEGRATE, BUT THEN THEY, WHEN THE PUBLIC FOUND OUT ABOUT IT THEY PUT SO MUCH PRESSURE ON THE BOARD THEY HAD TO RESCIND THE ORDER. >> Dumas: THREE YEARS LATER, LITTLE ROCK DESEGREGATES. 1957 AND ORVAL FAUBUS IS THE GOVERNOR AND MAKES THE DECISION TO CALL OUT THE NATIONAL GUARD TO PREVENT THE INTEGRATION OF CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL AND I THINK IT WAS LABOR DAY OF 1957. WHAT AFFECT DID THAT HAVE ON CHARLESTON? >> Bumpers: TERRIBLE. YOU KNOW, NOBODY IN CHARLESTON WAS PAYING MUCH ATTENTION TO WHAT WAS GOING ON IN LITTLE ROCK, BUT I WAS. I SENSED AS THIS THING BEGAN TO UNFOLD IN LITTLE ROCK AND TEMPERS BEGAN TO FLARE AND THE VOLATILITY OF THE SITUATION WAS EVIDENT. YOU KNOW ORVAL FAUBUS HAD PROBABLY AN 80, 85% APPROVAL TO DO WHAT HE DID. IN MY HOME TOWN OF CHARLESTON, SUCH TALK AS THERE WAS WAS PROBABLY NOT LIKE IT WAS IN A LOT OF PLACES BUT EVEN THERE THEY SORT OF CHAMPIONED WHAT FAUBUS WAS DOING. I SENSED IT AS SETTING UP A TERRIBLY TRAUMATIC EVENT FOR US. BECAUSE THERE HAD BEEN SOME UNDERLYING RESENTMENT AMONG SOME PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT WE DID, AND THIS WAS GOING TO BE THEIR OPPORTUNITY TO UNDO WHAT WE DID IF FAUBUS WAS ABLE PULL OFF THE CAPER HE WAS INVOLVED IN, IN LITTLE ROCK. >> Dumas: YOUR FATHER, YOUR FATHER'S AMBITION WAS FOR YOU TO ENTER POLITICS. PRACTICE LAW AND GET INTO POLITICS. YOU RUN FOR THE STATE REPRESENTATIVE FROM FRANKLIN COUNTY AGAINST A GUY NAMED MICHAEL WOMACK, MIKE WOMACK. >>Bumpers: YES. >>Dumas: WHY IN THE WORLD DID YOU ENTER THAT RACE? >> Bumpers: I'VE ASKED MYSELF THAT A THOUSAND TIMES. BY 1962 I HAD GOTTEN SORT OF ON MY FEET FINANCIALLY AND I THOUGHT I COULD TAKE THE TIME TO RUN. I THOUGHT YOU HAD TO START AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LADDER. I'D START IN THE ARKANSAS LEGISLATURE IN THE HOUSE, THEN MAYBE RUN FOR CONGRESS AND THEN FOR SENATOR. I HAD NO INTEREST WHATEVER IN BEING GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS. NEVER DID HAVE. AND SO I THOUGHT, "WELL I BELIEVE I CAN PULL THIS OFF." MIKE WOMACK WAS A YOUNG FELLOW WHO WAS THE COUNTY CLERK OR CIRCUIT CLERK, I FORGET WHICH AND HE HAD ANNOUNCED AND I THOUGHT I COULD BEAT HIM. AND I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT HE WAS THERE FOR FOUR YEARS GREETING EVERYBODY THAT CAME INTO THAT COURTHOUSE. I KNEW WITHIN TWO DAYS AFTER FILING FOR THE CAMPAIGN THAT THAT WAS A LOST CAUSE, I WASN'T GOING TO HAVE A PRAYER. IT WAS 42 TO 58 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO WHILE I WAS DISAPPOINTED, I HAD CONDITIONED MYSELF TO WHAT WAS OBVIOUSLY AN INEVITABLE LOSS, AND I REALLY FELT I HAD SORT OF KEPT MY FATHER'S YOU KNOW, I HAD DONE WHAT MY FATHER WANTED ME TO DO AND I DIDN'T WANT TO GO THROUGH THAT AGAIN. I DIDN'T THINK I WOULD EVER RUN AGAIN. I WENT BACK TO THAT LAW OFFICE THE NEXT DAY AND DIDN'T LOOK BACK AND STARTED TO MAKE MONEY, WHICH WAS MY GOAL AT THAT POINT, TO MAKE MONEY. AND I DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF IT. >> Dumas: FOR THE NEXT SIX YEARS BUMPERS CONCENTRATED ON HIS LAW PRACTICE AND HIS FAMILY, WHICH NOW INCLUDED THREE CHILDREN: BRENT, BILL AND BROOKE. IN 1966, ORVAL FAUBUS RETIRED FROM POLITICS AND WINTHROP ROCKEFELLER WAS ELECTED THE FIRST REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS SINCE RECONSTRUCTION. WHEN ROCKEFELLER RAN FOR A SECOND TERM, BUMPERS' THOUGHTS AGAIN TURNED TO POLITICS, AND HE CONSIDERED ENTERING THE RACE BUT WAITED UNTIL THE ELECTION OF 1970. FAUBUS CAME OUT OF RETIREMENT THAT YEAR TO CHALLENGE ROCKEFELLER FOR A THIRD TERM AND ENTERED A CROWDED DEMOCRATIC FIELD THAT INCLUDED, AMONG OTHERS, ATTORNEY GENERAL JOE PURCELL, HOUSE SPEAKER HAYES MCCLERKIN AND PROMINENT LAWYER BOB COMPTON. FAUBUS WAS FAVORED TO WIN THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION WHEN BUMPERS ENTERED THE FIELD AS A VIRTUAL UNKNOWN. >> Bumpers: I WANTED TO RUN. AND THE FIELD DIDN'T WORRY ME. ORVAL FAUBUS HAD CREATED SO MUCH CHAOS IN THIS STATE AND I FELT FRANKLY THAT ORVAL FAUBUS HAD SET THIS STATE BACK A LOT OF YEARS. HE WAS A MAN THAT I COULD NOT, I JUST FELT THAT I COULDN'T SIT HOME REMEMBERING A LOT OF MY FATHER'S TEACHINGS AND ALLOW HIM TO COME BACK TO POWER. I DIDN'T THINK HE COULD WIN. I THOUGHT ONE OF THE BIG ADVANTAGES I HAD WAS NOT BEING KNOWN. A CURIOUS THING IN POLITICS. PEOPLE WILL VOTE FOR SOMEBODY THEY DON'T KNOW BECAUSE THEY FEEL HE CAN'T POSSIBLY BE AS BAD AS THE ONES THEY DO KNOW. MY IDEA WAS NOT TO OVERTLY JUMP ON ORVAL FAUBUS BUT TO SIMPLY SAY, HE HAD HIS DAY AND IF THERE'S ANYTHING ARKANSAS NEEDS, IT'S A NEW DAY. >> Dumas: YOU STARTED OFF, WHAT, JUST YOU AND ARCHIE BASICALLY, ARCHIE SHAFFER YOUR NEPHEW. >> Bumpers: THAT'S ALL I HAD. >> Dumas: HE HAD BEEN WHAT, GOING TO MEDICAL SCHOOL OR SOMETHING? >> Bumpers: GOING TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AND HE DROPPED OUT. >>Dumas: HE DROPPED OUT AND CAME BACK AND CAMPAIGNED WITH YOU AND THAT WAS JUST ABOUT IT, YOU AND ARCHIE, TRAVELING THE STATE. >> Bumpers: I WAS JUST GOING TO THE COURTHOUSES AND THEN I'D MAKE THE SQUARE. OR MAIN STREET. AND BETTY WAS COVERING AREAS OF THE STATE THAT I WASN'T COVERING. AND HER SISTER TRAVELED WITH HER A LOT. WE TALKED ABOUT MEDICAL PRACTICE IN RURAL AREAS BECAUSE MANY PLACES WERE LIKE CHARLESTON. SOMETIMES WE HAD ONE DOCTOR AND SOMETIMES WE HAD NONE. WE TALKED ABOUT THE DEPLORABLE CONDITIONS OF STATE PARKS. AND FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER WE TALKED ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT. AND I COUCHED IT IN TERMS OF FISHERMEN AND HUNTERS. YOU WON'T HAVE A PLACE TO FISH. YOU WON'T HAVE A PLACE TO HUNT. UNLESS WE GET REAL AND UNDERSTAND AT WHAT WE'RE DOING TO OURSELVES. AND NOT JUST TO FISHERS AND HUNTERS, BUT ALSO FOR OUR WATER SUPPLIES. THE NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY ACT I BELIEVE HAD JUST BEEN PASSED OR IT WAS BEING DEBATED, BUT THE ENVIRONMENT, IT IS HARD TO SAY HERE 32 YEARS LATER, IT'S HARD TO SAY HOW TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS PEOPLE WERE TO THE ENVIRONMENT. IT WAS NEVER TALKED ABOUT, PEOPLE WERE DUMPING THEIR RAW SEWAGE INTO THE ARKANSAS RIVER OR WHEREVER THEY COULD FIND TO DUMP IT. SO I BEGAN TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND NOBODY ELSE DID. BUT THOSE WERE THINGS THAT REALLY RESONATED WITH PEOPLE. I STARTED OUT WITH ONE PERCENT NAME RECOGNITION, SUDDENLY I WAS AT 4%. AND SLOWLY BUT SURELY, THE STRANGEST THING ABOUT THAT CAMPAIGN WAS, THAT OF THE EIGHT CANDIDATES, I WAS THE ONLY CANDIDATE THAT MOVED UP. NOT ONE SOUL, JOE PURCELL AND HAYES MCCLERKIN STARTED OUT AT 14 EACH AND ON THE FRIDAY BEFORE THE ELECTION ON TUESDAY, HAYES WAS AT 11 AND JOE WAS STILL AT 14. AND I MOVED FROM THAT ORIGINAL 4% TO 14%. AND THEN OF COURSE THE NIGHT OF THE ELECTION I GOT 21 PERCENT OF THE VOTE AND THAT WAS ENOUGH TO GET ME INTO THE RUNOFF AGAINST FAUBUS. >> Dumas: HE WAS PREPARED TO RUN AGAINST JOE PURCELL I THINK IN THE RUNOFF AND ALL THE SUDDEN HE'S CONFRONTED WITH YOU. AND I THINK HIS STRATEGY WAS TO PAINT YOU AS WHAT THEY CALL A FLAMING LIBERAL. THAT WAS THE TERM THEY USED. IN TWO WEEKS THEY WERE GOING TO TELL THE PEOPLE OF ARKANSAS WHO YOU WERE. YOU WERE A FLAMING LIBERAL. HE ALSO USED BUSSING TO ACHIEVE DESEGREGATION IN THE RACE AS WELL. >> Bumpers: HE PLAYED THAT, I REMEMBER HE WAS IN HEBER SPRINGS WHICH I DON'T THINK HAD A SINGLE BLACK IN THE COUNTY, MAYBE A FEW, BUT NO BLACKS TO SPEAK OF IN CLEBURNE COUNTY. AND HE TOLD THEM "IF DALE BUMPERS IS ELECTED, YOU CAN PLAN ON STUDENTS BEING BUSSED FROM LITTLE ROCK TO HEBER SPRINGS TO INTEGRATE YOUR SCHOOLS." AND YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE SORT OF THING THAT CAN HAVE A DEVASTATING IMPACT. BUSSING WAS EXTREMELY UNPOPULAR OF COURSEAND HE WAS SUGGESTING THAT I WAS GOING TO INTEGRATE EVERY TOTALLY WHITE SCHOOL IN THE STATE BY BUSSING BLACKS OUT OF THE DELTA TO GOD KNOWS WHERE. >> Dumas: AS KIND OF A LAST DITCH DESPERATE EFFORT I THINK, RIGHT AT THE END OF THE CAMPAIGN THE WEEKEND BEFORE THE RUNOFF ELECTION, FAUBUS ANNOUNCES HE IS GOING TO CALL A PRESS CONFERENCE AND HE IS GOING TO HAVE A BLOCKBUSTER ANNOUNCEMENT TO MAKE. AND I THINK EVERYBODY WAS ON PINS AND NEEDLES WAITING FOR THIS BLOCKBUSTER ANNOUNCEMENT. WHICH WAS WHAT? >> Bumpers: FAUBUS SAID HE HAD A STORY THAT WOULD TURN THIS STATE UPSIDE DOWN. AND WE WERE TERRIFIED. AND HE WAS GOING TO HOLD A PRESS CONFERENCE MONDAY MORNING TO ANNOUNCE WHAT IT WAS. WE SENT ED LESTER, PROMINENT LITTLE ROCK LAWYER TO ATTEND FAUBUS' PRESS CONFERENCE AND ED WAS TO CALL ME OR ONE OF MY AIDES THE MINUTE WE KNEW WHAT THE BLOCKBUSTER WAS. AND I'M AT THIS GROUNDBREAKING CEREMONY DOWN AT MALVERN AND WHOEVER MY AIDE WAS CAME UP AND SAID "ED CALLED AND HERE IS THE STORY. FAUBUS ANNOUNCED THIS MORNING THAT IF HE IS ELECTED GOVERNOR HE WILL BE ASSASSINATED WITHIN SIX MONTHS. OF COURSE THE SUGGESTION IS THAT IF HE'S ELECTED THE LIBERALS WHO FAVOR INTEGRATION AND ALL THOSE WILD- EYED SCHEMES WILL KILL HIM OUT OF VENGEANCE FOR DEFEATING YOU. IT WILL BE A VENGEANCE KILLING. HE SAID, "THAT'S THE ONLY THING I CAN FIGURE. HE DIDN'T SAY THAT AND HE MAY HAVE SOME OTHER IDEA IN MIND." BY THIS TIME I'M ON MY WAY TO PINE BLUFF TO THE ROCK ISLAND, NO THE COTTON BELT RAILROAD PICNIC AND ALL THOSE OLD RAILROAD WORKERS WERE FOR ORVAL FAUBUS. I GOT UP AND I SAID, "I KNOW THAT MOST OF YOU ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR ORVAL FAUBUS BUT I WANT TO TELL YOU THAT YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SAVE HIS LIFE." AND I WENT THROUGH THE PRESS CONFERENCE. I SAID, "HE ANNOUNCED THIS MORNING THAT IF HE IS ELECTED WITHIN SIX MONTHS OR SIXTY DAYS," I FORGET WHICH IT WAS, "HE WILL BE ASSASSINATED. THAT IS IF HE'S ELECTED. SO YOU CAN HELP SAVE HIS LIFE BY VOTING FOR ME. IF I'M ELECTED, HE'LL HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR. YOU CAN SAVE HIS LIFE." SO EVEN ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE FOR FAUBUS BEGAN TO LAUGH AND IT WAS KIND OF UPROARIOUSLY FUNNY. AND YOU KNOW, FAUBUS GOT UP AND SPOKE AND HE NEVER ALLUDED TO THAT. EITHER BEFORE OR AFTER I SPOKE, HE NEVER ALLUDED TO THAT PRESS CONFERENCE HE'D HELD THAT MORNING WITH THAT BIG BOMB, HIS BIG BOMB ANNOUNCEMENT. >> Dumas: HE HAD ENTERED THE RACE WITH ONLY 1% NAME RECOGNITION AND BY THE FIRST PRIMARY, HALF THE STATE STILL DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS. BUT IN THE RUNOFF AGAINST ORVAL FAUBUS, VOTERS CHOSE DALE BUMPERS BY A BIG MARGIN. HE WAS READY TO FACE WINTHROP ROCKEFELLER IN THE GENERAL ELECTION THAT FALL. >> WERE YOU PRETTY SURE OF A VICTORY IN THE FALL AFTER THE PRIMARY? I MEAN I THINK Y'ALL HAD A POLL THAT SHOWED SOME MAMMOTH LEAD THAT YOU HAD OVER ROCKEFELLER AFTER THE PRIMARIES. AFTER YOU DISPOSED OF ORVAL FAUBUS, DID YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT ABOUT VICTORY IN THE FALL? >> VERY LITTLE. WE TOOK A POLL ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE -- AFTER THE FAUBUS ELECTION, AND I THINK IT WAS -- IT WAS EITHER '60 -- I BELIEVE IT WAS '72 -- 72-15, SOME SUCH OUT RAGE US FIGURE. I KNEW THAT BARRING A -- YOU KNOW, A REALLY MONUMENTAL EVENT OF SOME KIND -- AND I COULDN'T THINK OF WHAT IT MIGHT BE -- THAT I WOULD WIN THAT ELECTION. >> BUT IN THE CLOSING WEEKS OF THAT RACE, ROCKEFELLER SPENT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY -- PROBABLY UNPRECEDENTED CERTAINLY IN ARKANSAS -- AND I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH EVENTUALLY HE WOUND UP SPENDING IN THAT RACE. I'VE HEARD AS HIGH AS $10 MILLION. DID YOU BEGIN TO HAVE SOME DOUBTS IN THE FALL THAT THAT MIGHT -- THAT KIND OF MONEY COULD TURN THE TIDE? >> ERNIE, IT WAS MILDLY WORRISOME BUT IT WAS NOT REALLY AS TROUBLESOME AS YOU MIGHT THINK. AND THE REASON I WAS NOT TROUBLED IS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE ANY SENSITIVITY AT ALL, AS I TRAVELED AROUND THE STATE, PEOPLE WERE INCREASINGLY GRAVITATING TO ME. IT WAS A REMARKABLE TIME IN POLITICS IN THIS STATE. IT WAS SOMETHING UTTERLY DIFFERENT FROM ANYTHING ANYBODY HAD EVER SEEN. WE HAD A SLOGAN, WHICH WAS -- I DIDN'T THINK MUCH OF IT AT THE TIME BUT THE MORE I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND REFLECTED IT, IT WAS PERFECT. IT WAS "LET'S GET OUR STATE TOGETHER." THE STATE HAD BECOME SO RIDDLED WITH DISSENSION. ROCKEFELLER COULDN'T GET ANYTHING DONE BECAUSE HE WAS A REPUBLICAN AND THE DEMOCRAT -- THE DEMOCRATS TOTALLY CONTROLLED THE LEGISLATURE. AND THE PEOPLE IN THE STATE WERE TIRED OF THE FIGHTING. ROCKEFELLER WAS NOT A GIFTED CAMPAIGNER. HE WAS A MAN WHO WAS ILL AT EASE BEHIND A MICROPHONE. HE SEARCHED FOR WORDS. HE -- HIS VOCABULARY, I'M SURE, WAS ADEQUATE BUT HE COULDN'T FIND A WORD HE WANTED, OFTENTIMES. AND HE WAS VERY HESITANT. AND WHEN HE DID SAY SOMETHING NEGATIVE, HE'D ALWAYS SORT OF SMILE BECAUSE IT DIDN'T -- IT DIDN'T BECOME HIM, AND HE DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE DOING IT. BUT GETTING BACK TO THE POINT, I CAN'T THINK OF A SINGLE TIME, THAT FALL, WHERE I FELT THAT I WAS REALLY THREATENED WITH A DEFEAT. >> ROCKEFELLER'S CAMPAIGN AND ALSO ROCKEFELLER HIMSELF IMPLIED THAT IF YOU GOT ELECTED, THINGS WOULDN'T BE ANY DIFFERENT. THE SAME OLD CROWD WOULD BE RUNNING THE SHOW. THE SAME -- AND YOU COULD IDENTIFY WHO THAT OLD CROWD WAS, BUT CERTAINLY IT INCLUDEDDED Whit STEVENS. HE WAS THE KING MAKER OF ARKANSAS POLITICS IN THE 1940s INTO THE 1980s, PROBABLY. AND GOT CLOSE TO EVERY SINGLE GOVERNOR. WHETHER HE SUPPORTED HIM AT THE OUTSET OR NOT, HE BECAME AN ALLY OF EVERY GOVERNOR EXCEPT YOU. HE DIDN'T SUPPORT YOU IN THAT RACE, DID HE? >> NO. I WENT TO SEE HIM ONE TIME, WHEN I WAS THINKING ABOUT RUNNING. THIS WAS LONG BEFORE I ANNOUNCED. MARTIN BURKETT, WHO WAS -- HAD BEEN MAYOR OF LITTLE ROCK, WANTED ME TO SEE Whit STEVENS, SO I WENT TO SEE HIM. BUT I HAD ALSO SUED THE STEVENS PRODUCTION COMPANY, THEIR GAS COMPANY, SEVERAL TIMES, AND SO WHEN I WALKED IN AND MARTIN INTRODUCED ME TO WHIT STEVENS, HE SAYS, "OH, YEAH, I KNOW HIM. HE USED TO SUE THE HELL OUT OF US." AND WE HAD A VERY CONGENIAL CONVERSATION. I DIDN'T ASK HIM FOR HIS SUPPORT IN THE GOVERNOR'S RACE, AND HE DIDN'T TENDER IT. POLITICIANS STILL WANTED HIM BECAUSE OF HIS MONEY, AND IN THOSE DAYS YOU COULD CONTRIBUTE ANY AMOUNT YOU WANTED TO IN A GOVERNOR'S RACE. AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU GOT WHIT ON YOUR SIDE, THAT MEANT QUITE A BIT OF MONEY. OR AT LEAST IT WAS PERCEIVED AS MEANING A LOT OF MONEY. BUT I DIDN'T FRANKLY MUCH WANT WHIT STEVENS ON MY SIDE. I HAD NOTHING PARTICULARLY AGAINST HIM, BUT HE REPRESENTED THE PAST IN THIS STATE. AND PEOPLE I KNEW SAW IN ME -- THOSE WHO WERE PAYING ANY ATTENTION AT ALL SAW ME AS A NEW KIND OF LEADER. WHOM THEY WERE WILLING TO GIVE A CHANCE. >> WELL, YOU WON ROUGHLY 2-1. THE MARGIN WAS NOT QUITE AS BIG AS I GUESS IN THAT FIRST POLL, BUT ANYWAY, IT WAS A DRAMATIC VICTORY. >> MANY HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WENT TO WORK FOR US THAT I HAD NEVER MET, STILL HAVE NEVER MET, AND I DON'T WANT TO SOUND TRITE OR POLITICAL, BUT I THINK IT REALLY WAS A PEOPLE'S VICTORY. >> ROCKEFELLER DID YOU ONE BIG FAVOR. >> OH! >> THAT WAS THE DAY BEFORE -- I BELIEVE IT WAS THE DAY BEFORE YOUR INAUGURATION. >> IT WAS THE NIGHT BEFORE THE INAUGURATION. >> NIGHT BEFORE THE INAUGURATION. HE SIGNED A PROCLAMATION OR AN EXECUTIVE ORDER GRANTING CLEMENCY TO EVERYBODY ON DEATH ROW. COMMUTED THEIR SENTENCES TO LIFE IN PRISON. WAS IT 12, 13 -- >> 13. >> 13 PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW. >> THE FACT THAT HE DID THAT DIDN'T REALLY CREATE MUCH OF A FUROR. YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT EVERYBODY WOULD HAVE BEEN STANDING ON THEIR HEAD FOR THE GOVERNOR TO JUST ARBITRARILY AND SUMMARILY SAY, "THESE 13 MEN DON'T DESERVE TO DIE, I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE DEATH PENALTY AND I'M COMMUTING ALL OF THEM TO LIFE IN PRISON." AND YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THERE WAS WOULD HAVE BEEN A REAL OUTCRY AND THERE WASN'T. BUT I CAN TELL YOU HE REMOVED A TREMENDOUS BURDEN FOR ME BECAUSE THAT'S SOMETHING I HAD SORT OF LAID AWAKE AT NIGHT THINKING ABOUT, THE FIRST COMMUTATION THAT I CAME TO MY DESK, WAS I GOING TO SENTENCE SOMEBODY TO DIE. >> IN THE FOUR YEARS YOU WERE THERE, YOU NEVER HAD TO FACE THAT? >> NEVER FACED A SINGLE DEATH PENALTY. >> DID THERE REACH A POINT IN THAT FIRST YEAR OR TWO YEARS YOU WERE IN OFFICE WHEN YOU JUST FELT OVERWHELMED? I MEAN -- >> YES. >> -- THERE'S OBVIOUSLY BURDENS THAT YOU'VE NEVER HAD DEAL WITH BEFORE. >> WELL, IN THE EARLY DAYS, IT WAS RATHER FRIGHTENING. A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FRIGHTENED, BUT I WAS. I DON'T MEAN TERRIFIED OR FRIGHTENED FOR MY LIFE. BUT JUST FRIGHTENED ABOUT THE SCOPE AND THE MAGNITUDE OF WHAT I WAS ABOUT TO DO. AND REALIZING THAT I WAS JUST, AFTER ALL, A COUNTRY LAWYER. WITH NO -- I HADN'T BEEN IN THE LEGISLATURE. I HAD NO IDEA, THE WAY THIS WHOLE APPARATUS WORKED. AND I CAN REMEMBER GETTING REALLY UPSET ABOUT WHETHER MY INAUGURAL ADDRESS WAS UP TO THE OCCASION OR NOT, WHETHER IT WAS REALLY A GOOD SPEECH, ONE THAT I WANTED TO USE TO SET THE TONE FOR MY ADMINISTRATION. I HAD JUST BEEN SWORN IN THAT MORNING, AND I WAS THINKING ABOUT ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT COULD GO WRONG, AND IT WAS A -- IT WAS A VERY APPEAR HENCIVE TIME. >> IN THE ELECTIONS OF 1970, THERE HAD BEEN A MASSIVE TURNOVER IN THE ARKANSAS HOUSE. SOME OF THE OLD GUARD LEGISLATORS WHO HAVE BEEN THERE THROUGH THE FAUBUS ERA WERE REPLACED BY YOUNG REFORMERS. BUMPER PASSED MANY PROGRESSIVE INITIATIVES INCLUDING THE FIRST STATE-SPONSORED KINDERGARTEN PROGRAM, INCREASED IN TEACHERS' SALARIES AND FREE TEXTBOOKS FOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS. THE FIRST THING BUMPERS DID AS GOVERNOR WAS PASS A BILL REVAMPING THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF STATE GOVERNMENT, REDUCING THE NUMBER OF STATE AGENCIES THAT REPORT TO THE GOVERNOR FROM 67 TO 13 CABINET DEPARTMENTS. >> IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT 67 DEPARTMENTS WAS JUST CHAOS. MY BROTHER HAD BEEN CLIMBING THE CORPORATE LADDER IN AMERICA, AND WAS PRESIDENT OF A LARGE CORPORATION AT THE TIME, AND I DISCUSSED THAT WITH HIM. AND HE SAID, "LITTLE BROTHER, WHEN YOU'VE GOT 67 PEOPLE REPORTING TO YOU, THAT'S GOING TO BE LIKE A FIRE DRILL. NOBODY CAN RUN A COMPANY AND HAVE 67 DEPARTMENT HEADS REPORTING TO HIM. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RIGHT NUMBER IS, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT'S ABSURD." BUT THAT TURNED OUT PROBABLY TO BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I DID WHILE I WAS GOVERNOR, WAS THAT REORGANIZATION OF STATE GOVERNMENT. >> WELL, CERTAINLY THE NEXT MOST IMPORTANT THING WOULD HAVE BEEN TAXES. AT WHAT POINT DID YOU DECIDE, "WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO RAISE TAXES AND NOT JUST A MINIMUM AMOUNT. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A MAJOR TAX PROGRAM"? >> THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION THAT THIS STATE WAS GOING TO SINK IF WE DIDN'T RAISE TAXES. AND I DREADED IT. I HATED IT IT. I KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE POLITICALLY UNPOPULAR AND DIFFICULT TO GET THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE. AND WHAT I DID WAS ASK FOR AN INCREASE FROM 5% TO 9% OF THE INCOME TAX. LEGISLATORS BY THE DOZENS CAME THROUGH MY OFFICE SAYING, "WE OUGHT TO GO FOR THE SALES TAX, WE CAN GET THE SALES TAX PASSED, WE'LL NEVER GET THE INCOME TAX PASSED." AND I SAID, "NO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT. THAT TAX IS REGRESSIVE, IT HURTS POOR PEOPLE, AND WE'RE GOING TO THE INCOME TAX." >> DID THEY TELL YOU THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO RAISE THE INCOME TAX -- >> YES. >> -- BECAUSE IT TAKES A THROWRTS VOTE. >> YES. THAT'S ANOTHER THING -- INCIDENTAL, MOST PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT, BUT BACK WHEN THE RICH FOLKS WERE IN CHARGE, OF COURSE, THEY MADE SURE THAT RAISING THE INCOME TAX TOOK A 75% VOTE TO PASS THE SALES TAX, WHICH IS THE ONE THE POOR FOLKS HAD TO PAY, ONLY TOOK A 50% VOTE. IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST ANACHRONISTIC THINGS I EVER SAW IN MY LIFE. BUT THAT ALSO -- I THINK, ERNIE, WE HAD -- I'M AFRAID TO SAY IT. I THINK WE HAD 9 VOTES IN THE SENATE BEFORE WE FINALLY GOT THAT THING PASSED. >> THERE WERE QUITE A FEW. >> ONE OF THE BILLS THAT I'VE TAKEN MOST -- TAKEN CREDIT FOR AND JUSTLY SO, AND ONE THAT I'M PROUDEST OF WAS THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE BILL. WE ONLY HAD TWO COMMUNITY COLLEGES. AND SO WHEN I -- WHEN I PUT THIS BILL DOWN THERE, TO EXPAND THE COMMUNITY COLLEGES AND THE TRADE SCHOOLS, AND SOME IN COMBINATION, COMMUNITY COLLEGES WITH TRADE SCHOOLS, THE FOUR-YEAR COLLEGES WENT BERSERK. ALL YOU'RE DOING IS TAKING THE MONEY AWAY FROM US AND WE'RE ALREADY STARVING TO DEATH." AND I SAID, "YES, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF CHILDREN IN THIS COUNTRY THAT CAN'T AFFORD GO TO COLLEGE THAT CAN'T AFFORD TO GO TO THE UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS AND IF THEY COULD GO TO ONE NEARBY, EVEN IN THEIR HOMETOWN, FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS, THEY COULD DO IT AND THEY'D BENEFIT FROM IT. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, THEY'D KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE COLLEGE MATERIAL OR NOT." AND, YOU KNOW, THE LONG AND SHORT OF IT IS AS WE SIT HERE AND SPEAK RIGHT NOW, I THINK THERE ARE 22 TO 27 OF THOSE COLLEGES, AND EVERY ONE OF THEM ARE DOING EXTREMELY WELL. >> YOU GOT PROBABLY AT LEAST 95% OF ALL THE ADMINISTRATION BILLS THAT YOU PROPOSED -- 95% OR MORE PASSED. AN AMAZING RECORD. YET YOU HAD NO EXPERIENCE. YOU GO INTO THIS LEGISLATIVE SESSION, YOU'VE HAD NO EXPERIENCE WITH THE LEGISLATURE. HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO DO THAT? HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO DEVELOP THE KIND OF SKILLS TO LOBBY THE LEGISLATURE, TO GET ALL OF THIS PASSED? >> ERNIE, I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT WAS A MATTER OF JUST EARNED RESPECT, BECAUSE ADMINISTRATIVE SKILLS ARE NOT AS IMPORTANT AS WHAT YOU BELIEVE. YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT AS IMPORTANT AS YOUR VALUES AND THE WAY YOU CHAMPION THOSE VALUES, AND YOUR COMMITMENT TO THEM. AND EVERYBODY IN THAT LEGISLATURE KNEW THAT I WAS REALLY WORKING HARD TO MAKE THIS STATE BETTER THAN IT HAD EVER BEEN, TO INCREASE PEOPLE'S PRIDE IN THE STATE, AND TO LET THE REST OF THE COUNTRY KNOW THAT THE SCHOOL INTEGRATION CRISIS WAS BEHIND US. WE WERE A NEW STATE. AND I HARPED ON THAT CONTINUALLY. AND I WAS FAIRLY YOUNG AT THE TIME, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THIS NEW YOUNG AGGRESSIVE ARTICULATE GOVERNOR IN ARKANSAS, AND AS I SAY, I JUST PLAYED ON THAT AND PEOPLE -- THERE WAS -- THERE WAS NO MAGIC TO IT, AND IT'S TRUE. I DIDN'T HAVE ANY ADMINISTRATIVE SKILLS THEN, AND I DON'T HAVE ANY ADMINISTRATIVE SKILLS TO SPEAK OF NOW. BUT I DID KNOW WHAT I BELIEVED, AND I -- AND I KNEW WHAT I THOUGHT THIS STATE NEEDED, AND AS I TRAVELED AROUND THIS STATE WHEN I WAS RUNNING, I'D GO TO THE STATE PARKS. THEY WERE JUST A DISASTER. THERE WASN'T A STATE PARK IN THE STATE THAT I COULD RECOMMEND TO A FRIEND OF MINE IF HE CAME TO THIS STATE TO SPEND A DAY OR AN EVENING OR A NIGHT IN. AND WE APPROPRIATED -- LISTEN TO THIS: WE APPROPRIATED MORE MONEY, THE FIRST YEAR I WAS GOVERNOR, TO IMPROVE THE STATE PARK SYSTEM AND ADD A COUPLE OF PARKS THAN HAD BEEN APPROPRIATED IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE STATE. AND EVERYBODY SAID HOORAY! NOBODY SQUAWKED ABOUT THAT. EVERYBODY KNEW OUR STATE PARKS WERE A DISASTER AND NOW WE HAVE A GREAT STATE PARK SYSTEM AND WE BEGAN IT THEN. THAT WAS NOT A CASE OF ADMINISTRATIVE SKILLS; THAT WAS A CASE OF COMMON SENSE. AND I KNEW THAT WE OUGHT TO DO IT. >> YOU'VE OFTEN, OVER THE YEARS, MENTIONED ONE FAILURE IN THAT FIRST LEGISLATIVE SESSION, AND THAT WAS A BILL THAT WOULD HAVE SET ASIDE WILDERNESS AREAS. >> I WAS -- I WAS JUST NATURALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT. I DON'T KNOW WHY. I'D ALWAYS BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE STREAMS AND THE LAKES AND THE FORESTS. IT WAS JUST A -- SORT OF A THING WITH ME. I WAS A HUNTER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I WAS A QUAIL HUNTER AND I BELIEVED IN SAVING AS MUCH PROPERTY AS WE COULD. I DECIDED WE OUGHT TO SET ASIDE SOME LAND HERE. CONGRESS WAS BEGINNING TO TALK ABOUT IT. AND SO TO MAKE THIS STORY SHORT, I PUT A WILDERNESS BILL UP THERE, AND IT -- AND I NEVER COULD GET IT PASSED. IT WAS A CONCEPT THAT WAS NOT ALIEN TO THEM. IT WAS JUST THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT. ANYTHING THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH. AND I REMEMBER OLD VIRGIL FLETCHER, WHO WAS A SENATOR, STATE SENATOR FROM DOWN AT I GUESS MALVERN OR BENNETT -- ON BENTON AND I NEVER WILL FORGET HIS STATEMENT. HE SAYS, "WE DON'T NEED NO WILDERNESS. IF WE EVER NEED A WILDERNESS, WE'LL GROW ONE." (CHUCKLING) >> AS HIS FIRST TERM AS GOVERNOR CAME TO A CLOSE, PEOPLE BEGAN TO SPECULATE IF HE WOULD RUN FOR A SECOND TERM OR CHALLENGE SENATOR JOHN McCLELLAN. >> I THINK JOHN McCLELLAN WAS QUITE CERTAIN I WAS GOING TO RUN AGAINST HIM. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING TO ANYBODY TO LEAD HIM TO BELIEVE THAT, BUT I -- I THOUGHT THAT REORGANIZATION OF STATE GOVERNMENT WAS SO IMPORTANT THAT IT NEEDED A LITTLE MORE TENDER CARE, A LITTLE MORE SHEPHERDING AND I FELT THAT IF I LEFT AFTER ONE TERM, I'D SORT OF BE BETRAYING THE PEOPLE, TOO. NOBODY EVER -- I MEAN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN -- IT WOULD HAVE LOOKED TERRIBLY AMBITIOUS TO JUST RUN FOR GOVERNOR, GET ELECTED FOR A 2-YEAR TERM, AND THEN RUN FOR THE SENATE. I DON'T MIND TELLING YOU -- AND THIS IS A TERRIBLE THING TO SAY, BUT I THINK I'D PROBABLY HAVE BEEN ELECTED IF I HAD, BUT I JUST DIDN'T REALLY SERIOUSLY CONSIDER IT. >> BUMPERS BEAT FOUR OPPONENTS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY OF 1972. HE WAS EASILY ELECTED TO A SECOND TERM AS GOVERNOR. IN 1973, COMMODITY PRICES WENT THROUGH THE ROOF. THE INCOME TAX INCREASE THAT BUMPERS HAD PASSED IN THE PREVIOUS SESSION BEGAN TO COME IN, FILLING STATE COFFERS. >> ARKANSAS FARMERS MADE SO MUCH MONEY THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. WE HAD SAID -- WE HAD TOLD PEOPLE THAT THAT INCOME TAX WAS GOING TO RAISE SOMETHING LIKE $26 MILLION. IT TURNED OUT TO RAISE 56 MILLION. AND I FELT TERRIBLE ABOUT -- YOU KNOW, IT LOOKED LIKE I HAD MISLED THEM, BUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING WAS, SOYBEANS WENT UP TO 12, 13 -- RICE WAS $15 A BUSHEL, SOYBEANS $12 A BUSHEL, AND WHEN WE BEGAN TO COLLECT THAT INCOME TAX, IT WAS STAGGERING. THE TREASURER -- I HAD TO CALL A SPECIAL SESSION IN 1974 TO SPED THE MONEY AND THAT'S WHERE WE BUILT ALL THE BUILDINGS ON THE COLLEGE CAMPUSES AND MAYBE EVEN EXPANDED ONE PRISON. I DON'T THINK THERE WAS A SINGLE UNIVERSITY OR COLLEGE IN THE STATE THAT WE DIDN'T PUT A -- A SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT ON. >> YOU ENJOYED FOUR YEARS IN OFFICE WITHOUT -- WITHOUT A HINT OF SCANDAL. AND I DON'T RECALL EVEN ANY ALLEGATIONS OF SCANDAL WHILE YOU WERE IN OFFICE. WERE YOU EVER OFFERED ANY GIFTS WHILE YOU WERE GOVERNOR? >> YES. BETTY WAS SHOPPING COHEN'S DEPARTMENT STORE, WHICH WAS THE BIGGEST DEPARTMENT STORE IN TOWN AT THE TIME, AND SHE WAS SHOPPING AND THE SALESMAN HOLLERED AT HER AND SAYS MS. BUMPERS AND HE CAME OVER TO HER AND SHE SAID YES, AND HE SAID HER HUSBAND HAS A SUIT HER. SHE SAID WHAT DO YOU MEAN HE HAS A SUIT HER? AND HE SAYS WELL, A MAN LEFT MONEY FOR A NEW SUIT OF CLOTHES FOR THE GOVERNOR. AND WE WANT HIM TO COME DOWN AND PICK IT UP. AND SHE SAID WELL, YOU CAN SEND HIM HIS MONEY BACK BECAUSE THE GOVERNOR WON'T EXCEPT IT. AND HE SAID HE WON'T? AND SHE SAID NO. AND HE SAID -- I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW PLEASED I AM TO HEAR THAT. PEOPLE CAN SMELL DISHONESTY. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IF THEY -- IF THEY THINK THE GOVERNOR'S VIABLE OR, YOU KNOW, CAN BE HAD, THEY'LL SWARM HIM. THEY'LL BE IN THERE. BUT ONCE THE WORD GETS OUT THAT THIS GOVERNOR IS NOT FOR SALE, AND HE'S REAL AND SO ON, YOU WON'T BE BOTHERED AND I REALLY WASN'T BOTHERED VERY MUCH. I KNEW -- I KNEW, JUST AS A COMMON SENSICAL THING, THAT IF I WAS GOING TO BE A SUCCESSFUL GOVERNOR, IT WOULD BE AS MUCH BECAUSE OF THE THINGS THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN AS BECAUSE OF THE THINGS THAT DID. >> YOU MENTIONED BETTY. HOW DID PUBLIC LIFE AFFECT HER? >> BETTY LOVED EVERY MINUTE OF IT. SHE -- SHE LOVED MEETING PEOPLE. SHE LOVED DOING THINGS THAT SHE THOUGHT WAS -- THAT WERE IMPORTANT. AND AS YOU KNOW, SHE SPENT ABOUT A YEAR, THE FIRST YEAR ACTUALLY POURING TEA AND PRESIDING OVER MANSION PARTIES AND SO ON, BUT ULTIMATELY, SHE STARTED -- SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE LOW RATE OF CHILDHOOD IMMUNIZATIONS IN THIS STATE, AND SO SHE TOOK THAT ON. IT WAS CALLED "EVERY CHILD IN '74" WAS THAT? YEAH. AND OF COURSE YOU KNOW THEY WOUND UP -- I REMEMBER THAT WELL, IMMUNE NICING 300,000 KIDS ONE SATURDAY, JUST ONE SATURDAY, BUT SHE GOT THE BUG AND BECAME REALLY SORT OF A NATIONALLY-KNOWN FIGURE IN THE CHILDHOOD IMMUNIZATION PROGRAM, AND IS STILL NATIONALLY-KNOWN. >> THAT EFFORT BECAME KIND OF A PROTOTYPE, I GUESS, FOR IMMUNIZATION AND NATIONALLY -- >> THEY HAVE ESTABLISHED -- YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE ESTABLISHED REGISTRIES, WHICH IS WHAT SHE ALWAYS SAID -- SHE TOLD ME, AFTER THAT SATURDAY THEY MU NICE 300,000 KIDS, SHE SAID, "YOU KNOW, THIS IS GOOD FOR YOUR POLITICAL CAREER TO IMMUNIZE 300,000 KIDS." BUT SHE SAID, "THIS IS NOT A SOLUTION. THE SOLUTION IS TO START KEEPING UP WITH BABIES FROM THE DAY THEY ARE BORN ON A NATIONAL REGISTRY AND KEEPING UP WITH THEIR IMMUNIZATIONS ON THAT NATIONAL REGISTRY." AND, YOU KNOW, AS OF THIS MOMENT, THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME IS COMING INTO EXISTENCE AND IT WAS BETTY'S IDEA. IT KIND OF HURT MY FEELINGS WHEN SHE SAID, "THIS IS GOOD FOR YOUR POLITICAL CAREER BUT IT'S NOT A SOLUTION." >> IN 1974, BUMPERS WAS FACED WITH A DECISION ABOUT THE NEXT STEP IN HIS POLITICAL CAREER, TO RUN FOR A THIRD TERM AS GOVERNOR OR TO SEEK A HIGHER OFFICE. BOTH CONGRESSMAN JOHN PAUL HAMMER SCHMIDT AND SENATOR J. WILLIAM FULBRIGHT WERE UP FOR ELECTION. FULBRIGHT HAD HELD HIS SENATE SEAT FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS. AS CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE AND AN OPPONENT OF THE VIETNAM WAR, HE WAS A POWERFUL NATIONALLY-KNOWN FIGURE. >> MY GOAL WAS NOT TO BE GOVERNOR. IT WAS TO BE EITHER IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OR THE SENATE. AND SO I CHOSE THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE AS A STEPPINGSTONE ONLY. IN TRYING TO GET TO THE SENATE. BECAUSE THAT WAS MY GOAL. AND FRANKLY, MY FATHER CONVINCED ME I COULD BE PRESIDENT AND I THOUGHT THE SENATE WOULD BE A GREAT STEPPINGSTONE TO THE PRESIDENCY. AND RUNNING AGAINST FULBRIGHT WAS A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT DECISION. I HAD BEEN A FULBRIGHT FAN. I HAD VOTED FOR HIM. I HAD WORKED FOR HIM. RUNNING AGAINST FULBRIGHT MADE THAT DECISION SO AGONIZING. AND I FINALLY MADE IT, AND ONE OF THE REASONS I MADE IT WAS BECAUSE I WAS CONVINCED THAT BILL FULBRIGHT WAS GOING TO GET BEAT. THAT WAS NOT AN OPPORTUNISTIC IDEA TO SAY, "WELL, HE WAS GOING TO GET BEAT ANYWAY AND SO I'LL JUST RUN AGAINST HIM." THE REASON I BELIEVED THAT IS BECAUSE WE TOOK A POLL AND IT SHOWED THAT HE WAS INCREDIBLY WEAK. I DON'T KNOW QUITE WHAT THE GENESIS OF IT WAS. HE HAD BEEN A VERY ARDENT OPPONENT OF THE VIETNAMESE WAR -- THE VIETNAM WAR. I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE COMING TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE WAR WAS WRONG. HE HAD BEEN BRIGHT ALL ALONG. THE PEOPLE HAD BEEN WRONG. THEY MAY HAVE RESENTED THAT, THAT HE WAS RIGHT AND THEY WERE WRONG. I DON'T KNOW. BUT I KNOW ONE THING: THERE WAS ALSO A FEELING THAT ON THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, HE WAS NOT TAKING CARE OF ARKANSAS' BUSINESS. THAT HAD BEEN A SEETHING SORT OF UNDERCURRENT FOR A LONG TIME. I NEVER WILL FORGET THE GRIDIRON SHOW HERE ONE TIME, THE FOLLIES. ONE SKIT SHOWED FULBRIGHT GETTING OFF AN AIRPLANE WITH HIS COLORED GLASSES AND HIS LITTLE BRITISH HAT, BRITISH TWEED COAT, "WALL STREET JOURNAL" OUT OF HIS POCKET, COLORED GLASSES. HE GETS OFF THE PLANE, LOOKS AROUND AND SAID "MY, MY, SUCH POVERTY. DO THESE PEOPLE REALIZE THEY'RE ENTITLED TO FOREIGN AID?" WELL, THAT WAS FUNNY, BUT IT WAS ALSO DEVASTATING. IT SHOWED THAT PEOPLE IN THIS STATE -- THAT WAS A REFLECTION OF THE WAY PEOPLE SORT OF FELT. THAT HE WAS NOT IN TOUCH WITH THE PEOPLE BACK HOME. HE WASN'T GETTING HIGHWAY MONEY AND DAM MONEY AND ALL KINDS OF BUILDINGS AND CONSTRUCTION. >> HE LEFT THAT UP TO McCLELLAN TO DO THE -- >> I LEFT THAT TO JOHN MA'AM McCLELLAN YOU KNOW, AND RIGHTLY SO, McCLELLAN WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE. HE COULD GET ANYTHING HE WANTED. BUT ANYWAY, WE TOOK A POLL THAT SHOWED THAT I WOULD BEAT BILL FULBRIGHT 2-1 AND SHOWED THAT SID McMATH -- I'VE NEVER SAID THIS BEFORE, BUT SHOWED THAT SID McMATH RAN DEAD EVEN WITH HIM. I DON'T KNOW -- YOU KNOW, I DOUBT THAT SID WOULD HAVE BEAT HIM. HE MIGHT HAVE. BUT THE FACT THAT SID WAS RUNNING DEAD EVEN -- AND SID WAS GETTING UP IN YEARS THEN TOO, YOU KNOW -- PEOPLE WERE NOT LIKELY TO HAVE ELECTED HIM BECAUSE THEY'D WANT SOMEBODY YOUNGER THAT COULD START ESTABLISHING SENIORITY. SO IT WAS A VERY -- IT WAS A CRUSHING DECISION TO MAKE, BUT I MADE IT. >> IT WAS AN UNUSUAL CAMPAIGN, IN THAT THE TWO OF YOU DISAGREED ON ALMOST NOTHING DURING THE CAMPAIGN EXCEPT ON SENIORITY. >> YEAH. >> TALKED A LOT ABOUT SENIORITY AND YOU KIND OF DIMINISHED THE IMPORTANCE OF SENIORITY. BUT BEYOND THAT, ON ISSUES THERE WAS ALMOST NO DISTINCTION -- DIFFERENCES BETWEEN YOU ON ISSUES DURING THAT PAIN. CAMPAIGN. IN JUST FOUR YEARS, DALE BUMPERS HAD TRANSFORMED HIMSELF FROM UNKNOWN COUNTRY LAWYER TO POLITICAL GIANT KILLER. HE DEFEATED ORVAL FAUBUS AND WIN ROCKEFELLER TO BECOME GOVERNOR IN 1970. AND IN 1974, HE FULFILLED A CHILDHOOD DREAM, DEFEATING J. WILLIAM FULBRIGHT, TO BECOME A UNITED STATES SENATOR. HE WAS SWORN INTO THE SENATE IN JANUARY 1975. SOON AFTER, PEOPLE BEGAN TO SPECULATE THAT HE MIGHT THROW HIS HAT INTO AN EVEN BIGGER POLITICAL RING AND RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN 1976. >> YOU WENT TO THE SENATE IN JANUARY OF 1975. IT WASN'T LONG BEFORE THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE OF 1987 WAS UNDERWAY. AND ALMOST THE DAY YOU GOT TO THE SENATE, THERE WAS SPECULATION THAT YOU MIGHT RUN FOR SENATE -- RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN 1987, AND OBVIOUSLY YOU CONSIDERED THAT. DID YOU NOT? >> YES. >> AND WHAT CHANGED YOUR MIND? >> IN 1975, BY THE MIDDLE OF 1975, I WAS GIVING SERIOUS CONSIDERATION TO RUNNING IN 1976, AND WITHOUT GOING INTO ALL OF -- ALL OF MY INNERMOST THOUGHTS ABOUT IT, I -- I CAN TELL YOU NOW, AS I FELT THEN, THAT I WOULD PROBABLY NEVER HAVE A BETTER OPPORTUNITY TO BE PRESIDENT. THIS WAS POST-WATERGATE. PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FOR NEW FACES, LOOKING FOR NEW IDEAS, LOOKING FOR PEOPLE THEY COULD TRUST, AND JIMMY CARTER AND I HAD BEEN ELECTED GOVERNOR THE SAME YEAR, IN 1970. HE WAS ELECTED GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA, OF COURSE, AND I HAVE ARKANSAS. AND I THOUGHT THAT 1987 WAS THAT -- 1976 WASGOING TO BE A GO RUN. BUT I FINALLY I DECIDED THAT THE RAISING OF THE MONEY WAS GOING TO BE VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR AN UNKNOWN. I HADN'T REALLY ACK, LA MATED MYSELF TO THE WAY THE SENATE OPERATED. I CONCLUDED THAT I SHOULD PROBABLY NOT DO IT AND I WILL SAY THIS: AND THERE AGAIN, THIS IS NOT BECOMING OF ME TO SAY THIS, BUT ANYWAY, I REALLY FEEL TO THIS DAY THAT HAD I RUN, I WOULD HAVE HAD AN EXCELLENT CHANCE OF BEING ELECTED. I PROBABLY MADE A CEREBRAL -- CEREBRALLY CORRECT DECISION. POLITICALLY, IT WAS A BAD DECISION. I THINK I WOULD HAVE HAD AN EXCELLENT CHANCE OF BEING ELECTED THERE. THE PANAMA CANAL TREATY, I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT THE PANAMA CANAL TREATY, IN MY 24 YEARS IN THE SENATE WAS EASILY THE MOST VOLATILE DANGER VOTE THAT I CAST AND MOST OTHERS. >> WHY WAS IT SO VOLATILE AN ISSUE? >> WELL, THE REPUBLICANS MADE IT ONE. THE RIGHT WING IN THIS COUNTRY WERE JUST -- THEY WERE JUST GOING BALLISTIC. AND THE PANAMA CANAL HAD BEEN -- I DON'T KNOW. IT WAS -- IT WASN'T ON PEOPLE'S MINDS UNTIL THIS CAME UP. BUT ONCE IT DID, THEY'D SAY, "YOU KNOW, WE'VE BUILT IT, IT'S OURS." OF COURSE AS SENATOR HIGH A CAUSE WHAT YOU OF CALIFORNIA SAID, WE STOLE IT FAIR AND SQUARE, AND THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, THAT'S WHAT HAD HAD HAPPENED. WE HAD LITERALLY STOLEN THE THING. HENRY BELLMAN IN MY OPINION WAS SORT OF THE (INAUDIBLE). >> FORMER GOVERNOR AND HENRY BELLMAN GOT UP JUST BEFORE WE VOTED AND I BET HE DIDN'T TAKE TWO MINUTES TO SAY, "IF THE PANAMA CANAL WERE ACROSS AMERICA, YOU KNOW HOW YOU'D FEEL ABOUT IT BELONGING TO PANAMA." AND HE SAID, "I THINK WE OUGHT TO TREAT THE PANAMA YOU KNOWS THE SAME WAY WE'D WANT TO BE TREATED IF THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE REVERSED. >> AND WHEN YOU DECIDED TO CAST YOUR VOTE FOR IT AND SPEAK FOR IT, DID YOU KNOW THAT IT WAS THAT VOLATILE? >> YES. >> IT WAS THAT PERILOUS? >> DID I KNOW? LET ME GIVE YOU AN ILLUSTRATION. THE LAST THREE WEEKS BEFORE WE VOTED, WE WERE AVERAGING BETWEEN 3,000 AND 3300 PHONE CALLS AND LETTERS A DAY. WE COULDN'T EVEN BEGIN TO KEEP UP WITH THE MAIL. WE NEVER HAD ANYTHING BEFORE OR AFTER THAT THAT EVEN CAME CLOSE. TO GENERATING THAT KIND OF RESPONSE. IT WAS THAT VOTE THAT, IN MY OPINION, HAD MORE TO DO WITH RONALD REAGAN'S BEATING JIMMY CARTER IN 1980 AND THE SENATE BEING TAKEN OVER, LOCK STOCK AND BARREL, BY THE REPUBLICANS. IN MY OPINION, THE PANAMA CANAL TREATIES WERE MORE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE FACTOR. >> BUMPERS WAS ELECTED TO HIS SECOND TERM IN 1980. RONALD REAGAN TOOK OFFICE IN 1981 AND PROPOSED TO BALANCE THE BUDGET WHILE CUTTING TAXES AND INCREASING DEFENSE SPENDING. >> REAGREAGAN'S POPULARITY WAS EXTREMELY HIGH AT THE TIME, AND PEOPLE WERE AFRAID TO CHALLENGE HIM. BUT YOU THINK FOR A MINUTE, ERNIE, ABOUT THE SUPER SILLINESS OF A PROPOSITION THAT SAYS WE'RE GOING TO INCREASE DEFENSE SPENDING BY A MONUMENTAL AMOUNT AND WE'RE GOING TO CUT TAXES. AND ALL OF THIS -- ALL OF THIS SPONSORED BY A MAN WHO SAYS, "I WILL BALANCE THE BUDGET BY 1984 AND I MAY BE EVEN ABLE TO DO IT IN $19.83." I VOTED FOR THE SPENDING CUTS AND I VOTED AGAINST THE TAX CUTS AND I VOTED AGAINST THE DEFENSE -- BIG DEFENSE INCREASES. BUT THE TAX CUT TURNED OUT TO BE ASTRONOMICAL. AND ANYTIME A MAN TALKS ABOUT BALANCING THE BUDGET AND ECONOMIC POLICY AND THE ESSENTIALS OF BEING CONSERVATIVE AS THE DEFICIT CLIMBS FROM $67 BILLION, WHICH IT WAS THE YEAR BEFORE HE TOOK OFFICE, AND IS APPROACHING $300 BILLION A YEAR WHEN HE LEAVES OFFICE, HOW ANYBODY COULD CONSIDER THAT A SUCCESSFUL PRESIDENCY IS BEYOND ME. I GET ALMOST SALIVATING TALKING ABOUT IT AND I KNOW THIS IS NOT BECOMING OF ME. THIS IS NOT MY NATURE TO SAY THIS ON TELEVISION, BUT I CONSIDER IT THE WORST PRESIDENCY, JUST ABOUT, IN MODERN TIMES. >> 1984, RONALD REAGAN RUNS FOR PRESIDENT AGAIN. OBVIOUSLY IS REELECTED BY A BIG MARGIN. AND YOU -- I THINK THAT IS THE YEAR THAT YOU MADE YOUR MOST SERIOUS -- >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> -- STAB AT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. IN FACT, I THINK YOU WENT OUT TO SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA. >> I DID. >> MAYBE A COUPLE OF THE EARLY WHAT THEY CALL CATTLE SHOWS WHERE ALL THE POTENTIAL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES TALK AND EVERYBODY CAN TAKE A LOOK AT YOU (INAUDIBLE) BUT YET YOU PRETTY EARLY BACKED OUT AND DECIDED YOU WERE NOT GOING TO MAKE THAT RUN. WHY? >> I KNEW THAT RONALD REAGAN WAS GOING TO BE REELECTED. BY THAT TIME, THE RECESSION OF THE '81 AND '82 HAD LET UP AND THINGS WERE GETTING RATHER PROSPEROUS. OF COURSE I'VE ALWAYS SAID YOU LET ME WRITE $200 BILLION WORTH OF HOT CHECKS A YEAR AND I'LL SHOW YOU A GOOD TIME TOO. AND THINGS WERE BEGINNING TO PICK UP. AND I KNEW THAT HE WAS PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, INVULNERABLE IN 1984. AND SO I ULTIMATELY MADE THE DECISION THAT I WOULD NOT RUN. >> THEN IN 1988, WHICH IS THE YEAR THAT MICHAEL DUKAKIS WON THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION, YOU TOYED WITH IT THAT YEAR BUT YOU DIDN'T GO AS FAR AS YOU DID IN 19 -- >> DID NOT. FOR SOME REASON OR OTHER, IN '87, I HAD LOST A LITTLE OF MY ENTHUSIASM FOR BEING PRESIDENT. AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT ALL WENT INTO MY THOUGHTS, BUT I BACKED OUT OF THAT ONE EARLY. BILL CLINTON GOT INTERESTED, ONCE I SAID THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO GET INVOLVED IN THAT RACE. >> DO YOU REGRET IT AT ALL NOW, NOT FOLLOWING THROUGH AT SOME POINT? >> YES, OF COURSE. THAT'S THE FIRST TIME I'VE EVER SAID THAT. BUT -- AND IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME FOR ME TO COME AROUND TO THAT IDEA. ANOTHER THING THAT I ALSO HAVE TO SAY, ERNIE, IS: MY MOTHER WAS IRISH. SHE ALWAYS TAUGHT US THAT NO MATTER HOW GOOD THINGS WERE, THERE WAS AN ABYSS AHEAD OF US. YOU KNOW, THERE WAS SOME KIND OF DISASTER WAITING FOR US, NO MATTER HOW WELL THINGS WERE GOING. AND I'M AFFLICTED WITH THAT. BADLY AFFLICTED WITH THAT. MY ANGST KNOWS NO BOUNDS, SOMETIMES, ABOUT THINGS THAT DON'T AMOUNT TO ANYTHING. I CAN REMEMBER THREE OR FOUR THINGS THAT UPSET ME WHEN I WAS GOVERNOR AND SENATOR THAT ALMOST DROVE ME CRAZY. OF COURSE POLITICS IS A DIRTY BUSINESS AT TIMES. IT CAN GET REALLY NASTY. AND YOU'VE GOT ADVERSARIES EVERYWHERE, ANXIOUS TO BRING YOU DOWN. AND I USED TO SPEND A LOT OF SLEEPLESS NIGHTS, AND I KNEW THAT IF I RAN TO PRESIDENT, IT WOULD PROBABLY KILL ME. I DON'T WANT TO OVERSTATE THE CASE, BUT I MEAN IT'S JUST THE SORT OF THING. I WOUND UP HAVING A HEART ATTACK, YOU KNOW, IN 1996, AND IT WOULD HAVE COME MUCH EARLIER THAN THAT, IF I HAD BEEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE. >> THE SENATE, OF COURSE, IS HISTORICALLY A GREAT DEBATING SOCIETY, IT HAS BRYANT AND CALHOUN AND THINGS CHANGED EVERY TIME YOU WENT TO THE SENATE BUT DID YOU THINK THAT YOUR SKILLS AS A DEBATE, HONED AS A COUNTRY LAWYER IN ARKANSAS, WOULD STAND YOU IN GOOD STEAD WITH THE SENATE, WOULD GIVE YOU AN ADVANTAGE IN THE SENATE, AND DID IT TURN OUT TO BE SO? >> IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME, REALLY, THAT SUCH DEBATING SKILLS AS I HAD WOULD BECOME -- WOULD STAND ME IN GOOD STEAD, AND IN ALL FAIRNESS, IT DIDN'T WORK THE SAME WITH THE SENATE AS IT DID WITH THE VAST AUDIENCE OF ARKANSANS OR WITH JURIES, BECAUSE THE SENATE IS NOT REALLY A DELIBERATIVE BODY. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN AT ONE TIME, AND I'M QUITE SURE IT WAS AT ONE TIME, BUT IT IS ANYTHING BUT A DELIBERATIVE BODY NOW. NOBODY MUCH DELIBERATES ON REALLY MONUMENTAL ISSUES ANYMORE. THEY DECIDE WHAT'S GOOD FOR THE PARTY, YOU KNOW. THERE'S A LOT OF PARTNERSHIP AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH PARTISANSHIP. THAT'S THE REASON WE HAVE TWO POLITICAL PARTIES, TO ACCOMMODATE THE PHILOSOPHIES OF THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY. BUT WHEN THE NATIONAL INTEREST IS AT STAKE, PART TAN SHIP OUGHT TO BE PARKED OUTSIDE THE STORE. I SAW THE SENATE AS A DELIBERATIVE BODY MAYBE FOUR OR FIVE TIMES. ONE OF THOSE, I WAS INVOLVED IN. AM I CORRECT THAT AS WE SPEAK, THAT BULLDOZERS ARE POISED TO, IN EFFECT, ATTACK THIS TRACT WHICH YOU SEE -- >> SENATOR, YOU TOOK MY CLOSING LINE. COLLEAGUES, IT'S NOW OR NEVER. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU GET A SECOND CHANCE AT. THE BULLDOZERS ARE DOWN THERE NOW, AND THEY'RE WORKING IN THIS PART. >> I DECIDED TO TRY TO SAVE THE MANASSAS BATTLEFIELD. THEY WERE GETTING READY TO BUILD A SHOPPING CENTER AND CONDOMINIUMS AND GOLF COURSES AND EVERYTHING ON 542 ACRES OF LAND. WHICH WAS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MANASSAS BATTLEFIELD! SECOND BATTLE OF MANASSAS. WHICH WAS A CRITICAL WAR IN THE CIVIL -- A CRITICAL BATTLE IN THE CIVIL WAR. THE CIVIL WAR IS THE DEFINING MOMENT IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY. AND EVERY BIT OF THE HISTORY OUGHT TO BE SAVED. SO ANYWAY, JOHN WARNER FROM VIRGINIA WANTED TO GIVE THIS GUY WHO WAS GOING TO DEVELOP IT 80 ACRES AND DEVELOP -- I MEAN LET HIM KEEP 80 ACRES FOR THE BATTLEFIELD AND GIVE THIS DEVELOPER THE REST OF IT IT. TO ME, THAT WAS SILLY. >> I BELIEVE STRONGLY IN OUR HERITAGE AND I THINK OUR CHILDREN OUGHT TO KNOW WHERE THESE BATTLEFIELDS ARE AND WHAT WAS INVOLVED IN THEM. AND I DON'T WANT TO GO OUT THERE 10 YEARS FROM NOW WITH MY GRANDSON AND TELL HIM ABOUT THE SECOND BATTLE OF MANASSAS AND HE SAYS, "WELL, GRANDPA, WASN'T GENERAL LEE IN CONTROL OF THIS WAR HERE? DIDN'T HE COMMAND THE CONFEDERATE TROOPS?" "YES, HE DID." "WELL, WHERE WAS HE?" "HE WAS UP THERE WHERE THAT SHOPPING MALL IS." >> I HAD THE MAPS SHOWING THE BATTLE, WHO THE UNION GENERALS WERE, WHO THE CONFEDERATE GENERALS WERE, HOW THE BATTLE DEVELOPED OVER A PERIOD OF TWO DAYS, AND THERE WERE 75 SENATORS WHO SAT IN RATCHET ATTENTION TO THE DEBATE ON THE BATTLE OF MANASSAS. I HAD ABSOLUTELY NO HOPE OF WINNING THAT BATTLE BECAUSE IT WAS GOING TO COST QUITE A BIT OF MONEY. I DIDN'T KNOW HOW MUCH. WE VOTED ON MY AMENDMENT FIRST AND I PREVAILED 50-25 AND JOHN WARNER WHO HAD A SUBSTITUTE AMENDMENT WITHDREW HIS AMENDMENT. NOW, THE END OF THAT STORY IS, IT COST US $100 MILLION TO BUY THAT 542 ACRES. IF I HAD KNOWN IT WAS GOING TO COST THAT MUCH, I'M NOT SURE I'D HAVE HAD THE NERVE TO -- TO FIGHT THAT BATTLE, BUT YOU TALK TO ALMOST -- WELL, YOU TALK TO ANY CIVIL WAR BUFF OR YOU TALK TO MOST PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON. EVERYBODY REMEMBERS THAT EVENING WHEN THE SENATE REALLY WAS A DELIBERATIVE BODY. EVERYBODY WAS LEFT TO VOTE HIS OWN CONSCIENCE. THE LEADERS DIDN'T TELL ANYBODY HOW TO VOTE. AND WHAT A HAPPY THING IT WOULD BE IF THOSE KINDS OF DEBATES OCCURRED MORE FREQUENTLY. >> INSTANCES, I GUESS, WHERE YOU CLEARLY WENT AGAINST THE PREPONDERANT VIEW OF YOUR CONSTITUENTS WERE VOTES ON THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS. AMENDMENTS TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION, AMEND THE BILL OF RIGHTS TO PROHIBIT BUSING. LATER, YOU HAD SCHOOL PRAYER, AND I GUESS GOING INTO THE '90s, WE HAD FLAG BURNING, BUT THERE WERE A WHOLE VARIETY -- THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOME OTHER. >> WELL, THERE WERE AMENDMENTS ON ABORTION, FOR EXAMPLE. >> RIGHT. >> JUST EVERYTHING ANYBODY CAN THINK OF. THEY WANTED TO DO A -- EVERYBODY ALWAYS WANTED TO TINKER WITH THE CONSTITUTION. I CANNOT TELL YOU HOWDY EMOTIONAL I FOUND THAT. IT WAS JUST AN ANATHEMA TO ME. >> YOU KIND OF ESTABLISHED YOUR REPUTATION, I THINK, NATIONALLY, BECAUSE YOU'RE A SOUTHERN SENATOR FIGHTING THESE -- ALL THESE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS THAT WERE SO POPULAR IN THE SOUTH. >> WELL, IT WAS -- I THINK IT WAS A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT, OF COURSE, BEING A SOUTHERNER, TO CHAMPION THE POSITIONS THAT I TOOK, BUT I HAVE A TENDENCY TO BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN VALUES THAT DON'T HAVE GEOGRAPHICAL BOUNDARIES. I THINK THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN IT CAME TO PRAYER IN SCHOOL, I NEVER WILL FORGET IN 1986 I WAS THE ONLY SOUTHERN SENATOR THAT VOTED AGAINST THE PRAYER -- SO-CALLED PRAYER IN SCHOOL AMENDMENT. THAT AMENDMENT WAS A VERY POORLY CRAFTED AMENDMENT THAT SAID WHILE THE SCHOOL BOARD ITSELF COULD NOT CRAFT THESE PRAYERS TO BE RECITED CHILDREN, THEY COULD ADOPT PRAYERS. AND WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN -- WHAT THE FIGHT WOULD HAVE BEEN, EVERY TELEVISION EVANGELIST IN THE COUNTRY WOULD HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET CONTROL OF THE LOCAL SCHOOL BOARDS SO IT WOULD BE THEIR PRAYERS THE SCHOOL BOARD WOULD ADOPT. AND I SAID, "IF YOU BELIEVE IN THAT" -- I NEVER DID THAT. I NEVER BELIEVED IN SAYING IF YOU BELIEVE IN THIS, DON'T VOTE FOR ME. BUT THAT NIGHT I DID. I SAID I DON'T BELIEVE IN THAT AND I DON'T BELIEVE IN THAT. BUT IF YOU DO, DON'T VOTE FOR ME. I WILL NEVER VOTE FOR A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT LIKE THAT. >> BUMPERS WAS ELECTED TO A FOURTH TERM IN 1992. IT WAS THE LAST RACE HE WOULD TAKE. THE PROJECT HE OPPOSED THE MOST VEHEMENTLY WAS CONSTRUCTION OF A MANNED SPACE STATION. >> WE HAVE DEVELOPED A SPACESUIT. THERE IS NO GREAT DEMAND FOR SPACE SUITS. IN OUR NATION. THERE IS A GREAT NEED TO REDUCE CRIME TO FEED THE HUNGRY, TO EDUCATE OUR CHILDREN, TO HOUSE OUR PEOPLE, BUT THERE IS NO DEMAND FOR SPATE SUITS. TELL ME WHAT IT'S DONE FOR CANCER, AIDS, MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS SCLEROSIS,ALSALS. YOU NAME IT, YOU TELL ME WHAT SINGLE ADVANCE HAS BEEN MADE IN THE LAST 30 YEARS THAT CAME OUT OF SPACE. AND WHEN I TALK ABOUT $94 BILLION FOR THE COST OF THIS THING, THAT'S JUST THIS YEAR. IT GOES UP MONUMENTALLY EVERY YEAR. >> I NEVER FELT MORE STRONGLY ABOUT AN ISSUE THAN I DID THE SPACE STATION BECAUSE THE SPACE STATION, IT WAS JUST SO POWERFULLY CLEAR THAT THE COSTS AND THE BENEFIT -- THE COST/BENEFIT RATIO WAS JUST TOTALLY OUT OF -- IRRELEVANT. I WANT TO TELL YOU THIS, ERNIE -- OF COURSE AS YOU KNOW, I ULTIMATELY THAT BATTLE AND THEY CONTINUE TO BUILD THE SPACE STATION AND THEY'RE IN THE PROCESS OF BUILDING IT RIGHT NOW, BUT, YOU KNOW, I PICK UP ARTICLES IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND "WASHINGTON POST" THAT LOOK LIKE SPEECHES I MADE ON THE FLOOR, ALMOST WORD FOR WORD, ABOUT THE SKYROCKETING COSTS. I HAD ESTIMATED ORIGINALLY, WHEN I TOOK THAT ON, THAT ALL THE COSTS OF THE SPACE STATION FROM THE BEGINNING WOULD RUN $75 BILLION. THEN 90. THEN 100. THEN 105. THE SPACE STATION ISN'T IN PLACE NOW, AND THE COSTS CONTINUE TO SPIRAL OUT OF CONTROL, AND EVERY TIME I READ ONE OF THOSE STORIES AND THE ANSWERS OF NASA TO WHY THE COSTS ARE OUT OF CONTROL, I JUST HAVE TO SMILE A LITTLE BIT, YOU KNOW. THERE'S NOTHING A POLITICIAN ENJOYS MORE THAN SAYING, "I TOLD YOU SO." >> IN 1998, YOU DECIDED NOT TO RUN AGAIN. YOU'D SERVED FOUR TERMS, 24 YEARS IN THE SENATE. WHY? WHY DID YOU DECIDE NOT TO RUN? WHAT GUIDED YOUR DECISION? >> I HAD GOTTEN ALMOST DID HE SAY RESPONDENT ABOUT THE WAY THE SENATE OPERATED AND ABOUT MY INABILITY TO GET THINGS DONE THAT I REALLY CARED ABOUT. FRANKLY, I ALWAYS THOUGHT WE SPENT WAY TOO MUCH MONEY ON DEFENSE. THE MILITARY GOT WHATEVER THEY WANTED FIRST; EVERYBODY GOT WHAT WAS LEFT. IT WAS ALWAYS OUT OF KILTER. WE NEVER COULD MAKE UP OUR MIND BECAUSE OF THE PAROCHIAL INTERESTS, AND I WAS AS GUILTY AS ANYBODY. I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I HAD TO GO TO BAT FOR WEAPONS SYSTEMS THAT WERE BOUGHT IN CAMDEN, ARKANSAS BECAUSE THE JOBS DOWN THERE WERE SO IMPORTANT. BUT EVERY SINGLE THING THAT CAME UP, YOU PUT IT THROUGH A LITTLE FILTER IN YOUR BRAIN, YOU KNOW: HOW IS THIS GOING TO AFFECT MY MONEY SUPPLY? DO THE PEOPLE WHO GIVE ME A THOUSAND OR $2,000 EVERY TIME I RUN, ARE THEY GOING TO BE ALIENATED BY THIS VOTE? IS IT GOING TO COST JOBS IN FOREST CITY OR FORT SMITH OR PINE BLUFF? ARE THEY GOING TO LOSE ANY OF OUT OF THIS? IS SOMEBODY CAN USE THAT AGAINST YOU. ALL THOSE POLITICAL CONSIDERATIONS. IF THEY LINED UP -- IF -- JUST LIKE THE STARS LINING UP, THEN THE LAST THING YOU CONSIDERED WAS THE MERIT OF THE CASE. WAS IT MERITORIOUS? IT SEEMED TO ME THAT WE'D GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE THE THINGS THAT REALLY OUGHT TO MATTER IN THIS COUNTRY WERE BEING CONSIDERED LAST. >> IN BUMPERS' LAST YEAR AS A SENATE, ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT WERE BROUGHT AGAINST PRESIDENT CLINTON. BUMPERS RETIRED IN 1999 AND HAD ONLY BEEN OUT OF OFFICE FOR TWO WEEKS WHEN ARKANSAS URBAN WILDLIFE TOM HARKIN SUGGESTED THAT HE PRESENT THE CLOSING ARGUMENTS FOR CLINTON'S DEFENSE IN THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL. >> I SAID WELL, TOM, EVERYBODY IN THE SENATE KNOWS THAT BILL CLINTON AND I ARE BOTH FROM ARKANSAS, WE KNOW WE'VE BEEN FRIENDS FOR 20 YEARS, 25 YEARS. I'M NOT CREDIBLE TALKING ABOUT BILL CLINTON. NOBODY'S GOING TO LISTEN TO ME. HE SAID YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG. THAT'S THE REASON YOU SHOULD DO IT. BECAUSE OF THAT, YOU CAN SAY THINGS THAT NOBODY ELSE CAN SAY. WHEN I FIRST TALKED TO HIM, I SAID, "BILL, I'VE BEEN TRYING TO THINK WHAT I WOULD SAY THAT WOULD BE CREDIBLE." I SAID, "I CAN THINK OF A LOT OF ARGUMENTS. I CAN KICK KENNETH STARR AND BE HAPPY TO DO IT. I CAN TALK ABOUT WHAT HE HAS DONE TO THE STATE OF ARKANSAS, WHAT HE'S DONE TO THE COUNTRY, AND" -- BUT I SAID, "THE ONE THING I CAN DO, YOU AND TOM HARKIN BOTH KEPT TALKING ABOUT WHAT I COULD DO THAT NOBODY ELSE DO, SIMPLY BECAUSE OF OUR LONG FRIENDSHIP, COMING FROM THE SAME STATE," I SAID, "I'VE BEEN THINKING OF THE HUNDREDS OF TIMES THAT YOU AND I HAVE BEEN TOGETHER AT POLITICAL FUNCTIONS, SOCIAL FUNCTIONS, PERSONAL VISITS. OF ALL THOSE HUNDREDS OF TIMES, MOST OF THEM IN PUBLIC, I'VE NEVER SEEN YOU CONDUCT YOURSELF IN A WAY THAT DIDN'T REFLECT CREDIT ON YOU, YOUR FAMILY, AND THE STATE AND THE COUNTRY. "HE SAID, "DAMN, I LIKE THAT." I SAID, "WELL, THAT'S THE ONLY THING I CAN THINK OF RIGHT NOW ALONG THE CREDIBILITY LINE THAT MIGHT WORK." AND SO IT DID WORK. >> IF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS WAS TAKEN FROM ENGLISH LAW BY GEORGE MASON, WHICH LISTED HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS AS POLITICAL DEFENSES AGAINST THE STATE, WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE? SO, COLLEAGUES, IF YOU HONOR THE CONSTITUTION, YOU MUST LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF THE CONSTITUTION AND HOW WE GOT TO THE IMPEACHMENT CLAUSE. AND IF YOU DO THAT, AND YOU DO THAT HONESTLY, ACCORDING TO THE OATH YOU TOOK, YOU CANNOT -- YOU CAN CENSOR BILL CLINTON, YOU CAN HAND HIM OVER TO THE PROSECUTOR FOR HIM TO BE PROSECUTED, BUT YOU CANNOT CONVICT HIM. AND YOU CANNOT INDULGE YOURSELVES THE LUXOR THE RIGHT TO IGNORE THIS HISTORY. >> IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT PRESIDENT CLINTON WAS A MAGNET FOR THE HATERS IN THIS COUNTRY. THE EXTREME RIGHT WING AND OTHERS FOR OTHER MAYBE IDEALICAL REASONS DE-TESTIMONY BILL CLINTON AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THE TRIAL IN THE FIRST PLACE. IT'S REALLY A TRAGEDY. HE WAS -- YOU KNOW, LIKE ALL OF US HAD SOME FLAWS. YOU KNOW, HE WAS SORELY TEMPTED. BUT IF IT HAD NOT BEEN FOR THAT, IF IT HAD NOT BEEN FOR SOME OF THE CHARACTER FLAWS THAT DEVELOPED, HE'D GO DOWN IN THE HISTORY AS ONE OF THE BEST PRESIDENTS THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER HAD. I STILL THINK HE WILL. >> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS YOUR LEGACY, LET'S SAY THE TWO OR THREE THINGS YOU'RE PROUDEST OF, ALL OF YOUR PUBLIC LIFE? >> WELL, I'LL TELL YOU, EASTERNY e YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT A LEGACY WITHOUT BEING SLIGHTLY EGOTISTICAL SOUNDING OR ARROGANT SOUNDING, AND THE THING THAT SUSTAINED ME IN POLITICS, BECAUSE I WAS OBVIOUSLY MORE LIBERAL OF THIS STATE, AND THE THING THAT SUSTAINED ME AND ALLOWED ME TO BE REELECTED WAS THAT PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY DISAGREE WITH YOU, IF THEY THINK YOU'RE STANDING UP FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE, THEY'RE PRETTY FORGIVING. AND SO IN THE -- PARTICULARLY THE LAST 18 YEARS I WAS IN THE SENATE, PEOPLE WOULD SAY "I DON'T AGREE WITH SENATOR BUMPERS, BUT AT LEAST HE STANDS UP FOR WHAT HE BELIEVES." NOW, THAT IS A LEGACY IN WHICH I TAKE GREAT PRIDE. >> DALE BUMPERS QUOTED A GREAT PORTION OF HIS LIFE TO PUBLIC SERVICE, SERVING ON THE CHARLESTON SCHOOL BOARD, FOUR YEARS AS GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS, AND 24 YEARS IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE. IN HIS RETIREMENT, BUMPERS HAS RETURNED TO HIS ROOTS AS A LAWYER. THIS TIME WITH THE WASHINGTON FIRM OF EHRET FOX. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR THIS SERIES ON MEN OF DISTINCTION, DALE BUMPERS, I'M ERNIE DUMAS. THANKS FOR WATCHING.